Saxophones How do we define "vintage" or "not vintage" ?

[skeller047]

Are you publicly saying you still wear Disco Spandex 😳

Even privately that would still be news…

 

[PigSquealer]

Even privately that would still be news…

Thinking about this…20-30+ years. I’d guess @Dr G has “vintage” style going more like tuxedo dude.

 

[Woodpad]

Are you publicly saying you still wear Disco Spandex 😳

Those are classic vintage.

Vintage is before I was born (1953).

You are never vintage

Vintage means that the grapes used to make a bottle of wine all come from the harvest year noted on the bottle. Non-vintage contains a blend of wines from 2 or more vintages.

When pads, glue,cork, springs or body are from different years the saxophone can't be vintage.

 

[Targa]

Those are classic vintage.

You are never vintage

When pads, glue,cork, springs or body are from different years the saxophone can't be vintage.

Why not?
Trigger's broom was original.

 

[Pete Thomas]

When pads, glue,cork, springs or body are from different years the saxophone can't be vintage.

I disagree. Apart from body, those are consumables replaced as part of maintenance. Would a vintage car have to have 100 year old brake pads and engine oil?

PS I have edited the thread title a bit to make it clearer.

 

[jcn664]

“Vintage is 20-30+ years but not antique.“
This is for items older than 20 to 30 years and up to 100. There’s no gap.

Are you publicly saying you still wear Disco Spandex 😳

For me i will see like that

Antique (i like this term) or pre vintage (i don't like this term) in saxophone is form before 1848-1920

Vintage begin to 1920 and finished around 1950 (sba/mark vi)

Modern after 1960's.

You say antique or vintage for your c melody, or vintage horn,
You say antique or vintage for my conn f mezzo soprano or my buescher straight alto, or my King saxello...etc.

And if we see correctly all saxophone that i say for exemple are pratically 100years today

 

[jazzdoh]

I always consider the start of the mark VI to the start of modern saxophone, they had modern ergos so before this for me is vintage.
I am more at home with the modern ergos and struggled with vintage keywork but love the sound of early Conn,s and Buescher's.

 

[Nervous_Fingers]

Thinking about this…20-30+ years. I’d guess @Dr G has “vintage” style going more like tuxedo dude.
View attachment 32179

Oh man, great TOP pic! Next will be the video of tuxedo dude's vintage dance moves.

 

[Dr G]

Antique is 100+ years
Vintage is 20-30+ years but not antique.
Modern / Contemporary is loosely 0-20 years.
Classic pertains to cars and motorcycles. It’s not used is defining small personal property items.

IMHO Late 1950s to mid 1960s shows the most change in mass produced, commonplace instruments. Buyouts or mergers of companies changed the products. Yamaha entering the saxophone marketplace would be an interesting study.

“Vintage is 20-30+ years but not antique.“
This is for items older than 20 to 30 years and up to 100. There’s no gap.

Are you publicly saying you still wear Disco Spandex 😳

That helps. Is this what you intended?

Modern: Less than 20-30 years old
Vintage: Between 20-30 and ~100 years old
Antique: Greater than ~100 years old

I cannot wrap my head around calling a horn made in the 1980s or 1990s “vintage”.

 

[Dr G]

Are you publicly saying you still wear Disco Spandex 😳

No.

“Does this Hi-Vis Yellow Aerostich Touring suit make my butt look fast?”

 

[Dr G]

Oh man, great TOP pic! Next will be the video of tuxedo dude's vintage dance moves.

That looks like the group I took my high school girlfriend to see. Circa 1972-1973 and right at the cusp of the modern era (~50 years ago).

 

[Wonko]

denoting something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind.

That is (IMHO) the best definition so far.

For me the term vintage means "old and desirable (to some)"
That makes it a very loose concept, and it must be different to everybody.

If you would take a fixed definition, it would include some that give a very different meaning to the word Vintage.
Like a Martin (or King, or Selmer, ....) from 1950 would be considered by most people as Vintage. But a unknow Taiwanese saxophone form the same year is just an old sax to most people. So a fixed year as treshhold can't work I think

 

[arbin]

As to pre-vintage: in the motorcycle world Pioneer refers to the very earliest bikes. Those without many features that became necessities to later riders. Direct drive, no clutch or transmission, push start, no automatic oil pumps and many more features not yet invented or commonplace. They were motorcycles and are still being restored and ridden, but not necessarily easily.

This seems to work for early horns as well. I’m no expert on the first saxes but I do think many improvements that later appeared made the saxophone a more friendly horn to use to its maximum.

 

[Tuppertn]

That is (IMHO) the best definition so far.

For me the term vintage means "old and desirable (to some)"
That makes it a very loose concept, and it must be different to everybody.

If you would take a fixed definition, it would include some that give a very different meaning to the word Vintage.
Like a Martin (or King, or Selmer, ....) from 1950 would be considered by most people as Vintage. But a unknow Taiwanese saxophone form the same year is just an old sax to most people. So a fixed year as treshhold can't work I think

Once we finally get this thing figured out we need to codify and publicize our new definition so online sellers won't be allowed to sell "vintage" Bundy II's, Yamahas and Yanagisawas. Although, I really love my vintage T880 from 1982(ish). I probably wouldn't care for it as much if it were just a regular T880.

 

[PigSquealer]

That helps. Is this what you intended?

Modern: Less than 20-30 years old
Vintage: Between 20-30 and ~100 years old
Antique: Greater than ~100 years old

I cannot wrap my head around calling a horn made in the 1980s or 1990s “vintage”.

Yes. These terms are generally what appraisers use in writing reports.
Yeah, it’s hard to think the last Bundy II, made in 1984 is now vintage.

 

[LostCircuits]

Vintage is a moving target, depending on mfr and the very moment you ask. 30 years old? You asked yesterday, today some of them are more than 30 years old.

My 1970 Borgani is not vintage, my 1965 MK VI is. Or maybe not?
I think @Grumps had the correct answer.

 

[PigSquealer]

No.

“Does this Hi-Vis Yellow Aerostich Touring suit make my butt look fast?”

Aerostich day glow colors are just so 90’s.

 

[PigSquealer]

That looks like the group I took my high school girlfriend to see. Circa 1972-1973 and right at the cusp of the modern era (~50 years ago).

Picture was stated as 1969. Your favorite band TOP.

 

[Ghr9204]

Yeah, it’s hard to think the last Bundy II, made in 1984 is now vintage.

Perhaps in the "nostalgia" class? I get nostalgic everytime I play my Bundy II alto. 😛 (Model aeroplane circles, especially control line have a "nostalgia" class, 1951 into the early 1960's, can't remember the cutoff into the modern era. 1950 and prior is considered "vintage" C/L.)

As alluded to by others I think perhaps that the Selmer Mark VI debut date would be a good threshold? As it is well recognised, plus marked a number of improvements seen in today's saxes.

Designs predating it would be then "vintage"? Some designs like the Le Blanc Beaugnier Vito Model 37 debuted in 1952 but continued to be produced in the 1960's. However I would consider it to be of vintage design due to the antiquated left pinky table predating it.

But here is something. Why not have a vote, then through careful consideration of the Café admin team and their close professional associates, further refine definitions, then start using it?

Over time, the sax community would get so used to such a definition that it finally becomes a defacto standard?

 

[mizmar]

Why not have a vote, then through careful consideration of the Café admin team and their close professional associates, further refine definitions, then start using it?

Words, as I mentioned above, don't get meaning from definitions.
In a formal, legal, technical, scientific context; a definition has limited use within an argument or theory or law or contract...
... But in real life words need space to breath and grow.