Saxophones Getting your own sound (as opposed to tone)

[Pete Thomas]

The above confuses me. I understand totally the rhythm section accentuating the upbeat ie 2 & 4 (in 4/4 time). What I would often call a backbeat.

However when it comes to the bit about jazz phrasing, it seems to refer to upbeat and down beat in regard to eighth notes. IMO this is both confusing and wrong. I’m sure upbeat and downbeat comes from a conductor movement, and would normally be on the quarter notes in this context.

For eighth notes (which is more relevant to the old style jazz impro) I’d refer to on and off beat. 1 and 2 and etc.

Even then, emphasis on the and is often not done and IMO may just sound like a contrived way to “swing”.

It’s a great example of ai inventing stuff.

Based on the sources, inaccuracies may occur​

 

[Dr G]

Yandex AI​

Based on the sources, inaccuracies may occur​

Answer contents​

In old jazz, the upbeat was often accented. This is a common practice in jazz, where the "off" beats are emphasized. For example, the drummer closes the hi-hat on beats 2 and 4, and the bassist puts a subtle accent on these beats to sync up with the drummer's hi-hat. 3
Additionally, in jazz phrasing, it is common to tongue the upbeat and slur into the downbeat of the next note. This technique helps to create a swing feel. 3

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5 sources​

1. youtube.com 1
2. youtube.com 2
3. saxontheweb.net 3
4. jazzadvice.com 4
5. jazzguitar.be 5

I dunno, besides a sleepless night, it is something I always did, but then I learnt in on the left coast. You know what they say, "There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way." 😉

But seriously, done right, sounds good.

That description is worth everything you paid for it. Apply that articulation to straight eighth notes at 120 bpm and tell me if it sounds like jazz. Does it swing?

 

[mark_addy]

I enjoyed scanning through this thread, though as usual I feel my contribution - 'my sound has emerged over about 49 years of intermittently-trying to sound less sh*t' is not going to add much illumination. More trying would have helped, but I am not sure about the direction - so here's one for Private Eye's 'Pseud's Corner', I will describe my sound as 'apophatic'. That is - finding a nice sound by slowly becoming aware of what it is not. Quite a lot of life can work out like that.

(As regards gear - I played what was leant to me or given to me (Parrot - eek! - I am a tight arse Luddite and I generally hate brand names, but I really struggled with it), and then was flukey enough to buy a cheap (and local, pre-internet, which is why I bought it) old horn and mouthpiece which I liked, which made me sound less bad, and which I still have. Hopefully soon I'll finish fixing it).

 

[arbin]

I bought my first pro sax in 1979, a Selmer mark vII and used a metal berg until I stopped playing around 1995. Recently was able to play again and bought a 50’s SML and a Vandoren HR t75+. I just listened to the last lp I recorded before I stopped then compared it to some tunes I’ve recorded recently on the SML. My technique still needs work, but the sound and tone are very, very similar. Maybe odd, but I think I sound like me, for better or worse.

 

[cappers]

For the most part though I'd say that the 23 and the 25 are broadly interchangeable - after you've taken into account the inevitable differences between any two otherwise identical horns.

I played both today and although I can make the Yama 25 sound darker, the Vito 23 seems naturally darker. If 'darker' is the word? Rounder, warmer, more centred, smoother, less of an edge than the 25 seems to have.

I very much suspect that it's all in the crook.

I've tried swapping crooks/necks. The Yama neck is too tight for the receiver on the Vito and can only get a bit in and don't want to force it. The Vito neck is too loose on the 25. With it screwed as tight as I dare it still moves. Tried plumbers tape but the only sound I could get was a high pitched scream no matter what keys were pressed.

I actually prefer the tone of the Vito 23 but prefer the ergonomics on the Yama 25. Overall the action feels slicker (it may have been tweaked according to my tech). The left pinkie table on the 25 fits my hand perfectly, on the Vito its a bit of a stretch and stiffer, and I can accidentally brush the palm keys on the Vito (squeak!).

I suppose the keywork could be adjusted to make it slicker and fit my hands better. If so I think the Vito YTS-23 might win out, even though the YTS-25 is the 'improved' next iteration sax.

 

[cappers]

I'd stayed away from Yamahas for several reasons, one of which they were described as having a bright tone. I must be a dark player. I think the lack of input needed intonation wise allows the flexibility of sound.

You have a YAS-25 and a YTS-25 I believe? Hearing you I wouldn't call your sound bright so a lot (most?) must be user input.

I can voice the 25 to be darker/deeper/warmer but the Vito YTS-23 seems to be that way without so much input. Maybe I'm a bright player?

 

[cappers]

Anyone here with experience on YTS-23 and YTS-25 and their Vito counterparts care to comment re any tonal differences they found?
I really would like to know how much is the horn and how much is me.
Cheers

 

[Pete Thomas]

If 'darker' is the word?

If you were to ask me you’d find that I do not like the word to describe the opposite of bright. For me the opposite of bright is either dull or warm depending on how nice it sounds.

For me I would apply dark to more of a sort of mysterious brooding quality sort of ballad played by a cross between John Coltrane and James Moody.

I actually prefer the tone of the Vito 23 but prefer the ergonomics on the Yama 25.

Go for the tone. Ergonomics rarely matter unless it’s either causing pain/damage or you really have to get 375bpm rather than 374bpm.

I really would like to know how much is the horn and how much is me.

It’s you.

 

[Dr G]

I played both today and although I can make the Yama 25 sound darker, the Vito 23 seems naturally darker. If 'darker' is the word? Rounder, warmer, more centred, smoother, less of an edge than the 25 seems to have.

“Darker” is the description that many use. Edit: Or you could say “less bright” to satiate others.

I actually prefer the tone of the Vito 23 but prefer the ergonomics on the Yama 25. Overall the action feels slicker (it may have been tweaked according to my tech). The left pinkie table on the 25 fits my hand perfectly, on the Vito its a bit of a stretch and stiffer, and I can accidentally brush the palm keys on the Vito (squeak!).

Your hands may be considerably smaller than mine, but I find that many issues regarding palm keys (especially left hand) can be moderated by adjusting the posture of the left arm (elbow and wrist). Some people hold their elbows against the body and find a lot of challenges with palm keys as a result.

 

[Colin the Bear]

The difference between similar horns can be the regulation.

Get a leak light down them.

Playing through a leak reduces the range of flexibility available.

I like bright and dull as antonyms. Much better. Oh wait... does that make me a dull player. 🤔
I wouldn't have the bottle to call myself bright. 😁

Sometimes it can feel like you're playing through a sock.

 

[Ghr9204]

Anyone here with experience on YTS-23 and YTS-25 and their Vito counterparts care to comment re any tonal differences they found? I really would like to know how much is the horn and how much is me.

I agree with @Colin the Bear , you could possibly have a marginal leak on one of the saxes. An LED ribbon leak light are inexpensive and can reveal leak issues. Then you can point out to a tech the problem area, which helps him/her cut to the chase right away. But since you have two ....

Meanwhile, keep working on technique and tone with the sax you play best on and with the mouthpiece you play best on. In time you will learn how much the tone is from you rather than the sax, that you really do have control. This part of mastering the sax separates the pro/advanced player from the "tenderfoot".

You are doing fine, keep it up!

 

[Dr G]

I like bright and dull as antonyms. Much better.

It would be interesting to actually characterize some spectra on a frequency analyzer and have recordings linked to each. I liken the range of spectra to color: black to white - and between the two extremes are all the other colors, each in a range of intensities. For sound, I think of thin and thick/complex. Are many frequencies present? In what ratios?

If a sound is dull or stuffy, that’s yet a different dimension.

Sometimes it can feel like you're playing through a sock.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Often due to leaks or a sad reed.

 

[cappers]

Some people hold their elbows against the body and find a lot of challenges with palm keys as a result.

Hmm. Thank you, Maybe I'm trying not to 'chicken wing' and holding my left elbow too close. I'll check posture tomorrow.But it doesn't happen on the 25, only the Vito.

The difference between similar horns can be the regulation.

Get a leak light down them.

Both been recently COAd and play fine. I check with the leak light regularly and NAD.

In time you will learn how much the tone is from you rather than the sax, that you really do have control.

I'm getting there. As above I can now 'darken' or 'warm' the Yama sound by voicing/tongue position whatever. But assuming the same embouchure, voicing et al on same mpc and reed, there is a marked difference between the two horns.

There are no differences in playability (apart from minor ergonomics) and 'blowability'.
It is just the Vito 23 has a core sound that seems to me and others, 'warmer' than the 25, same mpc, reed and blower. My teacher/tech agreed they have different tonalities, beyond anything I may add or omit. I remember the first time I played the Vito and immediately thought it was the same as my 25 but 'lusher'.

 

[cappers]

It would be interesting to actually characterize some spectra on a frequency analyzer and have recordings linked to each. I liken the range of spectra to color: black to white - and between the two extremes are all the other colors, each in a range of intensities. For sound, I think of thin and thick/complex. Are many frequencies present? In what ratios?

The MD of our band has chromesthesia, where sounds invoke mental colours. He says he had it from a kid. I'll ask him what colours he sees for certain notes/frequencies.

Some yogic or at least Western interpretations, assign colours to the body's spiritual chakras (energy centres), and also frequencies.

But as these two images show, different authors have different interpretations:

 

[mark_addy]

It would be interesting to actually characterize some spectra on a frequency analyzer and have recordings linked to each.

I could provide that for a 100yr old Buescher and a modern Chinese alto. Would have to be photos off screen from a 40 yr old AF analyser though 🙂 In the old days we would have made a site recording on a Nagra (and rather later, DAT) and played it back into the not-very-portable analyser in the lab. I could probably sweet-talk my way back into an anechoic chamber, but I am not sure I am expecting sufficient difference to make this worth it - maybe I'll try first in a bedroom under a duvet!

 

[Targa]

I could provide that for a 100yr old Buescher and a modern Chinese alto. Would have to be photos off screen from a 40 yr old AF analyser though 🙂 In the old days we would have made a site recording on a Nagra (and rather later, DAT) and played it back into the not-very-portable analyser in the lab. I could probably sweet-talk my way back into an anechoic chamber, but I am not sure I am expecting sufficient difference to make this worth it - maybe I'll try first in a bedroom under a duvet!

How much sweet talking do you have to do for that option?

 

[Stephen Howard]

I played both today and although I can make the Yama 25 sound darker, the Vito 23 seems naturally darker. If 'darker' is the word? Rounder, warmer, more centred, smoother, less of an edge than the 25 seems to have.

I've tried swapping crooks/necks. The Yama neck is too tight for the receiver on the Vito and can only get a bit in and don't want to force it. The Vito neck is too loose on the 25. With it screwed as tight as I dare it still moves. Tried plumbers tape but the only sound I could get was a high pitched scream no matter what keys were pressed.
...

I suppose the keywork could be adjusted to make it slicker and fit my hands better. If so I think the Vito YTS-23 might win out, even though the YTS-25 is the 'improved' next iteration sax.

Did you check that the crook key was closing properly when you put the Vito crook on the 25? There's no other reason why it would squeal. It's worth trying again - and for an extra measure, put a lump of Blu-Tack over the relief slot below the crook clamp sockets.
It won't be a very precise test without a decent seal on the joint - but it should be plenty good enough to show any major differences.

 

[cappers]

Did you check that the crook key was closing properly when you put the Vito crook on the 25? There's no other reason why it would squeal. It's worth trying again - and for an extra measure, put a lump of Blu-Tack over the relief slot below the crook clamp sockets.
It won't be a very precise test without a decent seal on the joint - but it should be plenty good enough to show any major differences.

Thank you, I'll try that tomorrow.

 

[Dr G]

The MD of our band has chromesthesia, where sounds invoke mental colours. He says he had it from a kid. I'll ask him what colours he sees for certain notes/frequencies.

Some yogic or at least Western interpretations, assign colours to the body's spiritual chakras (energy centres), and also frequencies.

But as these two images show, different authors have different interpretations:
View attachment 32255 View attachment 32257

Yes, that would be interesting. I’d love to be able to play for him in real time to learn how he interprets tones on a single pitch, such as a low Bb, that then transitions to overtones and split tones - multiphonics. You can experiment with similar colors by playing the full range of the horn exercising only voicing (no octave key).

 

[mark_addy]

How much sweet talking do you have to do for that option?

I'd have to email some people I haven't worked with for a decade. Someone might remember me 🙂