embouchure

[biker1941]

Am I correct in thinking that to develope our embouchure, that is strength and control, we need to progressivly increase our reed strength, or is it a question of time and more practise with the same reed
rgds.
Clive :S

 

[Bobby G]

Both, in a way, but practising is more important. It's not necessary to work your way up through ever-harder reeds, although as you gain a better embouchure you may find a slightly harder reed suits you better. Many people start on a 1.5 or 2 and progress to about a 2.5.

What isn't necessary is to think you need to aim to be able to use the hardest reed available - many experienced players are quite happy using 2-2.5 on alto or 2.5-3 on tenor. It's also dependent on the tip opening on your mouthpiece - usually you'll find a hard reed harder to blow on a mouthpiece with a wider opening, so some players opt for a wide opening/softer reed combination, while others may go for a narrow opening/harder reed setup.

It can be a bit confusing, but as you gain experience and know what kind of sound you want, you should be able to find the right combination.

 

[Linky Lee]

It is an interesting thought though.

Is it beneficial to your playing on your favorite reed (take a 2.5 for example) to have spent some time playing 3, 3.5s etc. and possibly developed a stronger embouchure?

Could it possibly be better to work your way up somewhere and then work your way back down to somewhere you feel comfortable.
I've never really gone any higher than a 3 and I really like my 2.5s but my teacher has recommended either a wider tip opening mouthpiece or a harder reed, don't really understand why if you can develop the same on something smaller.

What do we think?

 

[Bobby G]

Linky_Lee wrote:
It is an interesting thought though.

Is it beneficial to your playing on your favorite reed (take a 2.5 for example) to have spent some time playing 3, 3.5s etc. and possibly developed a stronger embouchure?

Could it possibly be better to work your way up somewhere and then work your way back down to somewhere you feel comfortable.
I've never really gone any higher than a 3 and I really like my 2.5s but my teacher has recommended either a wider tip opening mouthpiece or a harder reed, don't really understand why if you can develop the same on something smaller.

What do we think?

We think yes! I also went up to RJS 3S and came back to a more flexible 2M, or Superial 2/2.5 - improves flexibility no end!

 

[Linky Lee]

Maybe I'll give the Rico Royal 3s a go again then for a while, then maybe move on to that old Java 3.5 I've got knocking around somewhere...

 

[Simon]

Hey Clive

Bob and Link have made some good points. I've found that players often change to a hard reed (3.5+) to 1) get more volume 2) get an easier time playing those high notes in the altissimo. Often this means the low notes become really wild and you have to honk them out.

A really firm embouchure isn't a good thing in my opinion, cos you're tightening up on the reed and possibly getting throat/tongue clenches etc... I think of it as more a 'seal' around the mpc to stop the air escaping, rather than consciously exerting pressure. Larry Teal mentions something about the amount of pressure a baby's jaw can exert - apparently really high! Much more than is needed to play sax...

So perhaps rather than thinking embouchure 'strength' it's better to think 'flexibility' and the thickness of the reed shouldn't determine how much strength but more how much flexibility you need to play it, cos you're trying to get as much vibration out of it as poss right? Developing that sensitivity to airstream changes (cos it's also a tongue/throat thing) is what its purpose is to me.

Simon

Biker1941 wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that to develope our embouchure, that is strength and control, we need to progressivly increase our reed strength, or is it a question of time and more practise with the same reed
rgds.
Clive :S

 

[Pete Thomas]

Biker1941 wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that to develope our embouchure, that is strength and control, we need to progressivly increase our reed strength,

No, I believe this is very bad.

Many people think you get harder reeds as you develop. Often it's a macho sort of thing.

It's a mistake to think you need hard reeds to play loud and that you gradually work up to harder and harder reeds.

I prefer a medium soft reed, not quite so easy to play loud as a hard reed, but with good embouchure and breath control it is possible to play loud and altissimo on a softer reed, with the added advantage of better low notes and more versatility of tone.

 

[Bobby G]

I totally agree with what Pete has said, and would add that a softer to medium strength reed allows greater flexibility if your style includes pitch-bends.

Am I right in thinking that classical players prefer a closer tip and harder reed combination, or is that too much of a generalisation?

 

[Tenor Sax]

Don't forget the all important Tone.

I can work comfortably with Jazz Select 3 Hard but find after a couple of hours I'm struggling to give the air support. With the 3 Soft I loose the full body sound I get from the 3 Hard but able to play dawn till dusk.

 

[jonf]

Pete Thomas wrote:

No, I believe this is very bad.

Many people think you get harder reeds as you develop. Often it's a macho sort of thing.

It's a mistake to think you need hard reeds to play loud and that you gradually work up to harder and harder reeds.

I prefer a medium soft reed, not quite so easy to play loud as a hard reed, but with good embouchure and breath control it is possible to play loud and altissimo on a softer reed, with the added advantage of better low notes and more versatility of tone.

Couldn't agree more. I've played on and off for about 28 years, and I use a RJS 2S on my Otto STM 10, and 2M on Lawton 8*BB. Everyone's different, and what suits me might not suit everyone (or even anyone else) but I've never bought into that blokey macho nonsense about hard reeds.

 

[phil_edwards]

Bobby G wrote:
Am I right in thinking that classical players prefer a closer tip and harder reed combination, or is that too much of a generalisation?

yes, 'tis a generalisation, but a pretty realistic one, I believe.

Phil

 

[biker1941]

Thankyou Gentlemen
Lots to think about there,I suppose the next question is .What is a fully developed embouchure??As a clarinet player I thought I might have a decent mouth, and then I pick up the sax and I cannot make the bottom 3 notes sound except in a hit and miss way
rgds
Clive :S :S

 

[justin_chune]

Even for a clarinet player the bottom three notes take time. Patience and practice and you'll get there. Have fun.

 

[tengu01]

Long tones maaaaaaaaaaaaan. Overtones and long tones.

I have been told that these are the twin holy grails of saxophone tone. The bottom notes require some support and coaxing at first. I added a tenor to my lineup and had to do a lot of work in convincing the low notes to pop out on demand.

Sometimes they still need persuading....

 

[Bobby G]

That is the problem - getting those lowest three or four notes to pop out cleanly from the initial tonguing rather than just kind of oozing out, although they are relatively easier when using the subtone 'fu' as opposed to the more standard 'tu'.

I have to agree with everything tengu says, long tones and practise is the key. If you are fairly new to playing, start on about a low Dwhen that's behaving itself move down to C# and so on. It may take a little time, it's a case of developing air support and muscle memory.

The same applies when developing the ability to play higher notes; start off with your most comfortable high note, work on the next one up until it's ok, then the next one etc.

I think it's been said elsewhere that using a harder reed means you may end up having to honk the low notes a bit.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Compared with clarinet, the low of the saxophone are bound to seem very difficult to play quietly.

 

[Bobby G]

Pete Thomas wrote:
Compared with clarinet, the low of the saxophone are bound to seem very difficult to play quietly.

I don't know about clarinet as I don't play one (yet, but who knows?), but it can be hard to get the low notes clean and quiet for a while, although subtone seems to me to be easier to get down to a whisper.