Saxophone beginners Embouchure - Teeth

[JamesOxford]

When playing my alto I had by lip back over my teeth, in what I figured is similar to the Teal method.
I have had my Tenor for a couple of weeks and my lower teeth are really cutting into my lower lip.
I have increased reed strength, and obviously have a different larger mouthpiece to adjust to, so I may be biting too hard, but I do try to be aware of that while playing.

I have watched three very well-known youtube teachers discuss embouchure and generally they talk about pushing the bottom lip forward.
Not sure if this is the Allard, or Jazz vs Classical, I have read pages about that, but I have a simple question.
My question is this: Are their lower lips still over their teeth, or just pressed back against them or something else. If I roll my lower lip forward as they describe I can't see how it can be over my teeth, although possibly pushing back against them?

If I no-longer have to have my lip back over my teeth, that will be a great relief and I could practice for longer.
I am not worried if it would take time to adjust and regain a decent tone if I can practice pain free in future.

 

[jbtsax]

With all of the talk about the bottom lip "out or in" I believe it is important to consider the differences of facial features and physiology among different players. Some players like myself have a "fuller" lower lip than others. Such players can have a portion of the lower lip covering the teeth and still have a sizeable portion of the lower lip showing in front of the teeth. This should not be interpreted to be a "lip out" embouchure which to me indicates that none of the lip is directly above the teeth.

Another area that I believe is important is to take into account is the style or "category" of music being played. I personally do not know of even one well known classical saxophonist who plays with a "lip out" embouchure. In fact I know of only one who subscribes to the Joe Allard school of playing, and that is Harvey Pittel. I welcome others to correct me if there are well known classical players I am not aware of who use a "lip out" or "double lip" embouchure.

 

[mizmar]

...and missed my question.

No one missed your question.

 

[Guenne]

I personally do not know of even one well known classical saxophonist who plays with a "lip out" embouchure. In fact I know of only one who subscribes to the Joe Allard school of playing, and that is Harvey Pittel. I welcome others to correct me if there are well known classical players I am not aware of who use a "lip out" or "double lip" embouchure.

You can find a lot of Allard in John Harle's book.
In fact, he has you form a double lip embouchure and then release the upper lip before playing.
(Tongue goes back and up, jaws are closer together, shape of lips becomes flatter and wider..)
He calls that a "Balanced Single Lip Embouchure".

Cheers, Guenne

 

[JamesOxford]

differences of facial features

"category" of music being played.

Good points, I should have mentioned not playing classical.

 

[Colin the Bear]

1 down ¿? to go. •○●○•

 

[JamesOxford]

1 down ¿? to go. •○●○•

Quite right, should have also mentioned ugly.
(but well-intentioned)

 

[CliveMA]

I have tried for two days playing with the lip forward.
I am making horrible sounds.

Hang in there! Your sound will improve as your musculature strengthens.

Are you no longer in pain? That's the main thing.

 

[JamesOxford]

Hang in there! Your sound will improve as your musculature strengthens.

Are you no longer bruising/cutting your lips? That's the main thing.

Thanks Clive, yes it's a great relief for my lip, but still having problems with high notes.
I ordered a jazzlab silencer today so I can spend more time on long notes which I have skimped on.
I'll get there.

 

[Dave Dunn]

I meant to say this early in the thread, the "dental product" is denture cushions. I looked into it, and went to the Chemist to see the range, because I have a big gap top and bottom in my front teeth on one side (punch in the mouth) and I wondered if they'd be stiff enough to bridge the gaps. I haven't tried them yet, but I have been playing without using my teeth at all, if I do, the mouthpiece turns sideways, so it's all lip pressure from me. I can go up and down on a note by an octave just by changing my bottom lip without moving my fingers, so lip out works for me. If I tuck it in close to my teeth and have it rigid, I'll just get the higher octave, it makes my tenor sound exactly like my pocket little sax, because I guess that's what my brain thinks I would want. Brains are weird.

 

[CliveMA]

Thanks Clive, yes it's a great relief for my lip, but still having problems with high notes.
I ordered a jazzlab silencer today so I can spend more time on long notes which I have skimped on.
I'll get there.

Long tones are the best way to improve your local muscular endurance and achieve better sound.