Elementary music theory questions

[frankb]

Under the heading of "no question too stupid", I'm trying to learn a bit of music theory and thought this thread might be handy for me (and anyone else) to post elementary questions...

Question 1 - Intervals, ("Music Theory for Complete Idiots" was obviously written for a better class of idiot...!) 🙁

If you have a note on the stave and want to place another note a specified interval from it do you have to remember the number of half-steps for that interval and count them out on a visualised piano keyboard (or something) before you can place it? Or is there a better way?

Or have I completely missed the point?!

All help appreciated (preferably before the blood starts to run out of my ears...!)

Thanks in advance

Frank

 

[RedBottom]

That's how I do it - not very quickly, I might add. I would imagine, like most things theory, there are other ways of working it out. However, if that's what works for you (and me) ...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Intervals are normally counted out not in half steps, but in steps (half and/or whole) based on the scale of the key you are in.

As you've mentioned half steps (AKA semitones) I presume you also know about whole steps (or whole tones)

A major scale for instance is made up of whole and half steps which I usually describe using T (tone or whole tone) and S (semi or half step)

A major scale has Tone and Semitone intervals between each note in the following sequence TTSTTTS (if in doubt look at the keyboard and see where the black notes vs white notes are in the key of C)

In C that is CDEFGABC

The interval between C and E is called a 3rd ( 3 steps between C and E - C D E)

But

So is the interval between E and G

( E F G)

Although these are both intervals of a 3rd, they are not the same

C to E is made of two tones, but E to G is made up of a semitone (half step) and a tone.

So we differentiate between the TYPE of 3rd interval by calling the 2 x Tone interval ( C to E) a MAJOR 3rd and the Tone + Semitone (E to G) a MINOR 3rd.

There's a lot more to it buy this will get you started, and no it was not a stupid question.

The interval

 

[Simon]

Good question Frank.

Two things that helped me alot :

1. There are only 7 different letter names for notes [A-B-C-D-E-F-G]
and they repeat (going up from G - A - B . . . and going down from A - G - F . . . )

You can work out the number of the interval by counting the letters - always count the note itself first then all the rest, so the interval A to E is 5, so it's called a 'fifth'.

Using Pete's explanation, you can work out what sort of fifth from the number of semitones (or keys on the keyboard) between the two (this happens to be 7 semitones, making it a 'perfect fifth')

2. Intervals (distances between notes) are always worked out from the lower note to the higher

-----
Example - this bit of music :

Say you want to work out the interval between the first two notes, E and C. So you go from the lower to the higher (point 2) C - E and counting the first note C - D - E you get a 3rd. 4 semitones = a major 3rd.

Hope these shortcuts help you too!
Simon

 

[Semiquaver]

When on my OU course I seem to remember someone saying that they dont count the tones/semitones they just work it out with the notes of the scla/ key signature.

So from G to Bb is a third but because there is no Bb is the key of G it must be a minor third, one semitone lower.

Something like that, it was a while ago.

 

[Bobby G]

Then there are your intervals between notes which are two notes apart in a major scale e.g. C-E, a major 3rd, D-F, a minor 3rd, E-G, a minor 3rd etc. By adding another note two notes above the 3rd, e.g. C-E-G, D-F-A etc, you end up with the basic chords (triads) relating to the key of the major scale.

 

[Linky Lee]

re arrange your two triads Bobby (and put the 7th in) and you get.... C D E F G A (B) -. C major!

Do the same thing starting on D.... D F# A C#, E G B... oh look, D E F# G A B C# it's D major this time!

Don't you love it when you realise why something works?

 

[Bobby G]

Linky_Lee wrote:
re arrange your two triads Bobby (and put the 7th in) and you get.... C D E F G A (B) -. C major!

Do the same thing starting on D.... D F# A C#, E G B... oh look, D E F# G A B C# it's D major this time!

Don't you love it when you realise why something works?

Yes I do 🙂 To keep it simpler for Frank and others, and referring to my last post, this is where the terms you'll hear such as relative minor (the minor triad starting on the sixth note of the major scale, in this case CDEFGA), subdominant (major triad starting on the fourth note of the major scale, in this case CDEF), and dominant (major triad starting on the fifth note of the major scale, in thisase CDEFG) come from, and it's the root note of the chord, and the third, either major or minor, that are the most important notes in the chord as I believe has been mentioned elsewhere.

Hope this is not confusing you Frank, or pushing you along too fast!

Incidentally, those four triads I have mentioned (C major, A minor, F major, G major) when played in that order provide you with the chord sequence necessary to play about 85% of all known doowop songs 😉

 

[nick_cook]

8| 8| 8| 8|

 

[frankb]

First things first - Thank you all very much for responding!

I fell off the bus at "triads", but I think I now understand the answer to my original question;

If you have a note on the stave and want to place a note a specified interval away -

1. For a basic, garden variety, generic interval you can simply count up on the stave
2. If you want to be specific about whether it's a major or minor interval you can't work it out just on the stave (with a possible exception for Semiquaver's OU course shortcut), you need to go away and count through tones and semitones to arrive at the answer and then come back and write it down on the stave.

(Also 3. It wasn't a dumb question - that information is not in the book!)

Many thanks for the extra information, but I think I'm in danger (understatement!) of running before I can walk...! 😉

I'll now go away and play with plasticine worms with the rest of the infants. 😉 Stay tuned, my next question will be appearing as soon as I get stuck again. (So that's in... 3... 2... 1...!)

 

[RedBottom]

Semiquaver wrote:
When on my OU course ...

Aha! The infamous A214 Summer School!!!

 

[tengu01]

I read somewhere that in order to remember what certain intervals sound like, you can relate them to the first two notes of various songs.

Minor 2nd (one semitone): Jaws, Bye Bye Blackbird,
Major 2nd (two semitones): Happy Birthday, Silent night, Rudolph the red nosed reindeer
Minor 3rd (three semis): Georgia on my mind, Work song, Confirmation
Major 3rd (4 semis): Oh when the saints go marching in
Perfect 4th (5 semis): Here comes the bride, Take 5, Round Midnight
#4/b5th (6 semis): Maria (west side story)
Perfect 5th (7 semis): Twinkle twinkle little star
#5th (8 semis): Morning of the carnival (don't know the song but Jamey Aebersold says so, so it must be true)
Major 6th (9 semis): Days of Wine and Roses, Take the A Train

I found these while looking for free stuff on Jamey Aebsersold's website. Helped to recognise the sound of the intervals, which comes in really handy for transcriptions and also just picking up a tune or working out one note from the previous one.

 

[Dylan]

tengu01 wrote:
I read somewhere that in order to remember what certain intervals sound like, you can relate them to the first two notes of various songs.

Absolutely brilliant!

Thanks Tengu (and Jamey)

 

[Pete Thomas]

Dylan wrote:
Absolutely brilliant!

minor 7th (a tricky one) is the Startrek theme and Somewhere (from Westside Story)

 

[sharon]

Nick Cook wrote:
8| 8| 8| 8|

I match that Nick and raise you >.< 🙁 😱 >.< :cry:


I'll just quietly go and sit in the corner now with my small beginners music book. :erm:

 

[frankb]

To other novices -

Try the lessons at http://www.musictheory.net/ It's a very good resource. A glance through won't do it, but a serious read with a fair bit of concentration and bits of it start to make a form of sense.

The note trainer's good too.

 

[helena]

wow - I have just had a quick look at musictheory.net - it is great. Part of mt music teacher's "homework" was to write all triads - this site really helps to understand them
thanks again

Helen