Double time solo: how best to transcribe & BiaB Backing Track ?

[rhysonsax]

I have started to transcribe a soprano solo by Budd Johnson - it's a wonderful version of Summertime that he recorded with Earl Hines, and I wanted to try to play it for this month's recording thread. I can't find this track to link to on YouTube, but do search it out as it's excellent.

The tempo starts at about 64 bpm for the head and then it goes into double time - the rhythm section are playing eight quaver beats to the bar and the sax is playing lots of demi-semi quavers.

I am using Transcribe! software and Sibelius for the notation. I have started out transcribing it as normal, but there is lots and lots of black ink and it will be quite complex to read in terms of rests, beats and subdivision.

I guess that there are no rules about how to do this, but what do you think would be best ? Maybe I could carry on as I am, or I could double the number of bars or I could have bars of 8/4 at 128 bpm.

Rhys

PS I would also like to make a backing track with Band in a Box that goes into double time for a couple of choruses, but have no idea how to do that, or if it is even possible.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Perhaps put a time change instead? Quaver = 64 at the beginning then quaver = 128 when it changes. Or possibly 256 if that makes reading easier?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think the best thing is to keep the transcribed solo at the signature you start with, and put up with the 1/32 notes.

OTOH, if there is a specific defined part of it that is double times, then you could change the time signature, but not to 8/4 as that would be weird (and put e off). I think the accepted way to double time form 4/4 would be to use cut common (C with vertical line) - that is what I have mostly seen in standard showband type arrangements. (No harm in writing "double time" at that point to make it obvious. But a 32 bar tune would then be 64 bars.

How you would do it in BIAB I have no idea, there is a BIAB forum I believe that may have the answer. But it may be you have to do two versions and edit the audio together.

 

[Chris]

Well this is video

Hope it's the right one.

As for BiaB DT, there are a couple of ways to do it. Set the style for the song, then pick individual RealTracks for each instrument, most have a DT option on the B sections. Open the song up to one big chorus and change the dT's sections to 'B' they will be A by default.

or

Create your song, open to one big chorus and using the f5 key edit a tempo change on the bars of the song that need to be double time. You can alter almost anything from key, the number of beats per bar etc etc.

Just be aware that sometimes BiaB RT's may not respond in the way you think they will to extreme tempo changes.
By using DT realtracks may be the best option rather than getting ballad RT's to double up.

Hope this helps


Chris..

 

[rhysonsax]

That's the right recording @Chris - thanks. It shouldn't have Jimmy Rushing in the title as he isn't on this tune but does sing elsewhere on the album.

And thanks for those suggestions on BiaB - I thought you might well have some ideas.

I will plough on with the transcription and then turn my attention to a backing track. If it all comes together I will let you know.

Rhys

 

[Colin the Bear]

One of the styles in BiaB plays cut time in B.

 

[trimmy]

Great version by Earl Hines, not heard it before

 

[rhysonsax]

Great version by Earl Hines, not heard it before

Yeah, but it's all about the soprano of Budd Johnson for me. He really was an underappreciated giant on tenor and played some lovely sop and bari too.

I am amazed that no one seems to have a transcription of it on the internet. I have got as far as the outro now, but it will need a lot of tidying up. Budd seems to stick to mostly scale notes but does wonderful things with the rhythm and his sound.

Rhys

 

[rhysonsax]

I'm having trouble working out the chords they use on bars 12 and 13 of the 16 bar form - I'm not even sure they use the same harmony on each chorus, or they throw in some passing chord(s).

They are playing in concert F minor and lead sheets tell me this is usually | ii - V7 | I Maj | on the b3 of the key, so here I was expecting | Bbmin - Eb7 | Ab Maj |.

Can anyone with better ears than me tell me what they do over those two bars, which occur at roughly these timings in the video @Chris has linked to above ?

Soprano tune after the intro [1:25 to 1:32]
1st soprano impro [2:24 to 2:31]
Piano impro [3:16 to 3:23]
2nd soprano impro [4:35 to 4:42]

And the form is a bit strange too, as they seem to play an extra four bars after the piano solo and then go to the outro two bars before the end of the song's chorus - or am I barking mad ?

Rhys

 

[fibracell]

to my ears they are playing E7 (#5 b9) Eb7 9b Ab maj7

I'd also write out the solos in 4/4 time at the new tempo. Makes more sense to me than keeping the slow tempo and having lots of demi or semi quavers. Makes it more readable and playable.

 

[Colin the Bear]

There's a facility on BiaB where you play the track into it and it gives you the arrangement. Sometimes there's several chords in a bar but you can simplify manually.

 

[rhysonsax]

There's a facility on BiaB where you play the track into it and it gives you the arrangement. Sometimes there's several chords in a bar but you can simplify manually.

Thanks @Colin the Bear - I have done that in the past and it seems quite powerful, but a bit flaky. When I try to do it on this particular track, the audio imports OK but I just cannot make it open in the Audio Chord Wizard. I wonder if that part of BiaB has become corrupted on my machine.

Rhys

 

[Colin the Bear]

Using it can be a bit overkill. Sometimes eight chords to the bar. Perhaps PG music can help.

PG Music - Support

 

[rhysonsax]

@Colin the Bear Audio Chord Wizard not working - PG Music Forums

I found this thread on the PG Music forum which describes exactly the problem I am having with the Audio Chord Wizard. It seems it may be because I moved BiaB onto an external hard drive because of the space it was taking. But I am wary of moving it back onto the C: drive in case it stops BiaB working completely - at the moment it is only the Chord Wizard that doesn't work.

But in reading the forum I have discovered that I also have the sister program called RealBand - I had no idea that was something separate and I will have to learn what that can give me.

Rhys

 

[Colin the Bear]

Me too. I've not used it yet.

 

[rhysonsax]

I just discovered this old thread that I started and it's relevant to something I am doing at the moment.

Next month I am going to an improvisation workshop where we are working on three Horace Silver tunes. One of them is the slow ballad "Peace" which is a lovely ten bar tune with quite complex chord changes. It is interesting to try to understand how really good players approach these changes.

I have a good recording by Alan Barnes and have just transcribed his alto from the album "Yeah !" Here is the recording and I have attached my first effort at the transcription.

View: https://youtu.be/tOszMns7L9k


Although he is soloing only with the bass (played by Dave Green), Alan plays his two choruses basically as though he is thinking in double time (and maybe sometimes quadruple). I wonder whether my transcription would be easier to read and understand if I explicitly showed those two choruses in another time signature.

What do you think ?

Rhys

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think you should just play and not transcribe.

 

[skeller047]

I’d leave it as is, but maybe add “Double Time Feel” above the solo.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wonder whether my transcription would be easier to read and understand if I explicitly showed those two choruses in another time signature.

I think it is clearer to keep as it is.

think you should just play and not transcribe.

Transcribing to notation can be very useful IMO

 

[trimmy]

Funnily enough, i watched this vid only yesterday about transcribing and found it very interesting, the way he breaks it down and uses notation.

View: https://youtu.be/YFIjYqNf0_w