Playing the saxophone Double Lip Professionals

[Direct Current]

This might not be well known.

Who are recording / touring professionals that are double lip players?

Or anyone playing to an audience. However, I thought it'd be interesting to learn the names of players we knew from recordings and concerts.

Not meant to debate technique merits. But I won't storm out if you do.

Finally, is DOUBLE LIPPER a term? Hopefully that won't get me barred.

 

[Pete Effamy]

One thing is probably true, that there were more double lip pros decades ago. Demands upon the range of the instrument have risen, as with most instruments, and this is not conducive to a happy top lip.

There is always the advantage of a double lip embouchure of naturally raising the soft palette - probably aiding a round, full-bodied tone more easily (?). Great for classical, probably great for 20's/30's jazz too. It "was" in use on clarinet too, not just sax.

These days? Couldn't even name you one on either instrument in any musical field spanning the past 50 years. Google might know.

So, there are advantages, but there is the obvious disadvantage and that goes for the vast majority, thus making it untenable.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I believe Lee Allen used a double lip embouchure.

Finally, is DOUBLE LIPPER a term? Hopefully that won't get me barred.

I haven't heard the term, but it's obvious what it means in the context of saxophone or clarinet playing so why not. I don't understand why it would get you barred though.

 

[BalancedReaction]

There are a few big name players who reportedly use double lip.
I heard of Branford Marsalis, Walter Blanding, Dayna Stephens, Harry Allen, and Antonio Hart.

 

[Guenne]

Benny Goodman on clarinet after taking lessons with Reginald Kell.

'Not a good sound, a weak staccato ...' - National Jazz Archive

National Jazz Archive volunteer, and former Trustee, John Dale makes a personal search for material in the Archive about Benny Goodman. I’m a jazz enthusiast who collects 78rpm records and I’m also learning to play the clarinet. A not unnatural consequence is that I have more records by…

nationaljazzarchive.org.uk

Adam Larson:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIImFI2MgHA&list=RDEMJLG04NgmhDr_XHTO9MS0_A&start_radio=1

 

[Pete Effamy]

Benny Goodman on clarinet after taking lessons with Reginald Kell.

'Not a good sound, a weak staccato ...' - National Jazz Archive

National Jazz Archive volunteer, and former Trustee, John Dale makes a personal search for material in the Archive about Benny Goodman. I’m a jazz enthusiast who collects 78rpm records and I’m also learning to play the clarinet. A not unnatural consequence is that I have more records by…

nationaljazzarchive.org.uk

Adam Larson:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIImFI2MgHA&list=RDEMJLG04NgmhDr_XHTO9MS0_A&start_radio=1

Nice sax player. Double lip? Wouldn't have noticed.

Reading the article about BG, his harsh criticism of himself is unsurprising. If you are a good/harsh self-critic then it follows that the failure to hold a decent long tone of early months will culminate in something most of us find unbelievable - but many (most?) of the iconic players have this brutal view of themselves.

The double lip embouchure begs a question though:

- how much should be used - this will impact potential bruising, and;

- is it often tried and rejected too soon as it hasn't built the strength and resilience of the bottom lip?

Another question:

If I/you can't pick the people who play with it over those who don't, what's the significance?

Ergo: use it if it works for you and sounds good and you don't come to full stop in your progress because of it.

 

[Guenne]

- how much should be used - this will impact potential bruising, and;

John Harle in his book 'The Saxophone" advocates using DL for forming what he calls a "Balanced single lip embouchure".
Having both upper and lower lip slightly covering the teeth and then releasing the upper lip when forming the embouchure.

Double lip has an impact on where your tongue sits and and also on how you use your embouchure muscles.

What I can feel/hear when playing DL is that my "range" to bend notes down is much higher than with my conventional embouchure. That does not mean it has to be that way, DL for me is a good place to return sometimes and practice with it.

BTW: I have started playing the sax using DL, my teacher taught it that way (he didn't know better).

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Woodpad]

BTW: I have started playing the sax using DL, my teacher taught it that way (he didn't know better).

That is a surprise, I don't know any DL saxophone teacher in the Netherlands. A saxophone teacher of the Rotterdam conservatorium mentioned the US to find one, but Austria is much closer.

The position and locations of DL teachers is also of interest for this subject.

 

[Guenne]

That is a surprise, I don't know any DL saxophone teacher in the Netherlands. A saxophone teacher of the Rotterdam conservatorium mentioned the US to find one, but Austria is much closer.

He was a brass player. I'm an old man 🙂 50 years ago, music teachers taught all instruments and let them join the marching bands as soon as possible 😎

 

[Pete Effamy]

John Harle

..is unorthodox to say the least. The whole straightening of the crook thing..,

 

[Guenne]

.is unorthodox to say the least. The whole straightening of the crook thing..,

Right. And there are many more things in the book that are similar to horse dewormers against covid.
But the thing with Double Lip embouchure formation works well with students (as do other things written).

 

[Direct Current]

Benny Goodman on clarinet after taking lessons with Reginald Kell.

'Not a good sound, a weak staccato ...' - National Jazz Archive

National Jazz Archive volunteer, and former Trustee, John Dale makes a personal search for material in the Archive about Benny Goodman. I’m a jazz enthusiast who collects 78rpm records and I’m also learning to play the clarinet. A not unnatural consequence is that I have more records by…

nationaljazzarchive.org.uk

Adam Larson:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIImFI2MgHA&list=RDEMJLG04NgmhDr_XHTO9MS0_A&start_radio=1

I loved reading the article AND listening to this cut (I don't see the connection, but I'm a new player). Thank you for the post. Very interesting!

To wit,

In the article, regarding his first classical recording, B G used the same reed he used at a gig the night before. Felt uncomfortable after just a few measures. Quickly left. Grateful they stayed quiet and let him save face (he assumed).

I'm wondering if the thing no one said, and B G refused to believe, is that he sounded fine. And they just sat there because they were not reacting to anything. Might have thought he was just refreshing. Hard for me to imagine B G sounding bad to us.

From the article, it's obvious that B G put tremendous pressure on himself both to improve technically and to have the approval / validation of his classical player colleagues. This is pretty mind blowing! From his recordings, I thought B G was born with a clarinet in hand and nine months experience.

Sometimes we never know the inner turmoil of other people, especially if they are admirable to us. I read the article twice just to grasp how much pressure B G was self imposing. Would have never guessed it ever. His playing sounds natural and effortless. And flawless.

 

[Direct Current]

There are a few big name players who reportedly use double lip.
I heard of Branford Marsalis, Walter Blanding, Dayna Stephens, Harry Allen, and Antonio Hart.

Impressive list. Did you learn this reading their interviews on technique and the like? I don't "see" it just watching videos. Thanks for this. Kind of makes me conclude that there is no "role model" function. Maybe the DL is just something a player starts on or comes into. But we are not seeing or hearing differences?

 

[Direct Current]

I haven't heard the term, but it's obvious what it means in the context of saxophone or clarinet playing so why not. I don't understand why it would get you barred though.

Because I really appreciate you and the Cafe Pete Thomas and I'm never sure how something might be taken as naughty. Probably my mind is the problem. Thank you!

 

[turf3]

I have never attempted to play double lip, but I will say that on baritone (my primary voice) when I'm playing in a certain vein, with good airstream support, and especially if I'm subtoning with a lot of vibrato, my upper teeth will sometimes come off the top of the MP, as the "purse string" of embouchure muscles is exerting enough force all round to support the reed.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I believe Lee Allen used a double lip embouchure.

I heard of Branford Marsalis,

Both of those studied with great New Orleans clarinettists Alvin Batiste so that is probably why they are/were double lippers.

 

[BalancedReaction]

Both of those studied with great New Orleans clarinettists Alvin Batiste so that is probably why they are/were double lippers.

Indeed. Alvin Baptiste was a strong influence in New Orleans.
Two more students of his, Walter Blanding and Victor Goines of the Lincoln Center Orchestra also use the double lip embouchure.

 

[Direct Current]

Tell me another place where this much saxophonology exists for the taking.

Some of our folks really know the history as well as the technicals.

Quoted from Wikipedia article on Mister Batiste:

"Several well-known musicians studied under Batiste while at Southern University. They include Branford Marsalis, Randy Jackson, his brother Herman, Donald Harrison, Lee Allen, Henry Butler, Charlie Singleton (Cameo), Ronald Myers and Woodie Douglas (Spirit). Mike Esneault, an Emmy Award-winning composer, pianist, and educator was also mentored by Batiste. Several members of the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra such as Reginald Veal, Wess "Warmdaddy" Anderson, and Herlin Riley were disciples of Batiste, some of whom were referred through Branford Marsalis."

Shared in the spirit of fair use and education.

Curious how we knew Batiste was a Double Lipper ?

 

[Jeanette]

Because I really appreciate you and the Cafe Pete Thomas and I'm never sure how something might be taken as naughty. Probably my mind is the problem. Thank you!

We don't bar people very often and certainly not without a conversation first 🙂

Jx

 

[KMSRI]

Hi all,

I'm currently reworking my set up, thanks for some health and DENTAL problems. All the above is helpful. Thanks