Theory & Impro Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

[mrblackbat]

IMO the second is way better unless we are considering modal impro, e.g. jazz or funk wehere there is just one chord G7 and G is the tonal center.

If you have a IIm7 V7 I in C then any scale you may think of for the Dm7 and G7 (if you want to think scales) should be a C scale as above. C major or C harmonic minor are both good. Harmonic minor even if its a G9 or G13 as the Ab and Eb are bluesy sounding. And in this case mixolydian can be thrown out of the window.

Sorry if it wasn't clear - the first was absolutely considering modal improv on a single chord type tune.

With regards to your second part, I was hoping that was covered by my final point that mostly they're interchangeable.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Note: Except for frequently by people like Miles Davis and Charlie Parker, as per above. (But those people are like, outliers in Jazz, you know, needn’t concern yourself with them.. 🙄)

Yes, I'm pretty sure that most of the chord guys I've worked with would give me that look that says "play your one note horn and shut up" if I started conversing with them about 11's in 13 chords.

 

[Zasterz]

Yes, I'm pretty sure that most of the chord guys I've worked with would give me that look that says "play your one note horn and shut up" if I started conversing with them about 11's in 13 chords.

I don’t work with anyone who wouldn’t take “you’re not supposed to play this note” as an explicit prompt to use that exact note. So few rules left to break, really…

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think Pete alluded to this voicing:

Play what amounts to an F maj7 voicing starting right above middle C on the piano:

E F A C

Put Bb in the bass.

Beautiful.

Context.

 

[mrblackbat]

Note: Except for frequently by people like Miles Davis and Charlie Parker, as per above. (But those people are like, outliers in Jazz, you know, needn’t concern yourself with them.. 🙄)

All Blues is a completely different kind of tune. Show me a 2-5-1 in All Blues? It's a modal blues... AND if you look at what Bill Evans plays comping through it, not a lot of the third in the chord in sight.

Re Charlie Parker, yes he'll play 4ths as an appogiatura, an enclosure or as a passing note, but he's not resolving to them and he's not sitting there honking a 4th for ages over a dominant chord in a 2-5-1.

 

[Zasterz]

All Blues is a completely different kind of tune. Show me a 2-5-1 in All Blues? It's a modal blues... AND if you look at what Bill Evans plays comping through it, not a lot of the third in the chord in sight.

Re Charlie Parker, yes he'll play 4ths as an appogiatura, an enclosure or as a passing note, but he's not resolving to them and he's not sitting there honking a 4th for ages over a dominant chord in a 2-5-1.

Look at you, moving goalposts! If you meant to say “The 11th isn’t usually honked on for ages over a dominant 7 in the particular context of a ii-V-I” then why didn’t you just say so originally? I’m sure none of us saying “the natural 11 on a dominant is best thought of as a ‘use-with-care’ note rather than an ‘avoid’ note” would disagree with that statement.

How does one honk on a note “for ages” over a V7 in a ii-V-I anyway? How slow is the tempo? What’s the typical note value? You get 2 beats, 4 at most. I can find an example of a master putting that note on any one of those beats. But I guess it’ll be “No True Scotsman” again since it’s always going to move somewhere else, being skillful music and all.

 

[skeller047]

It’s all a muddle. Cross-pollination of different musical esthetics from different centuries. In jazz, functional harmony comes mostly from the Romantic period, whereas modal harmony dates back to the 9th century at least. And modes themselves back to the Greeks in the 2nd BC !

This discussion would never have gone on so long if it weren’t for Jamey Aebersold et. al. adding to the cross pollination with the forced marriage of chords and modes.

@cappers I am glad to see you have followed along. These kinds of discussions are very esoteric. If you follow a couple of very straightforward principles you will be fine;

If it sounds good, it is good.
There are only two types of music - good and bad. (Duke Ellington)

The real point of theory and notation is to give us a way to communicate ideas quickly. With that, I’ll add on to what I said earlier.

If I give a chordal player a sheet with G13 on it, that player will likely not include a C in the voicing. At about a 99% probability. If I write instead G Mixolydian, quartal voicings and plenty of sus chords (with C in them) will likely happen. Again, 99%. Those are the results I expect when writing down those directions.

MELODICALLY, that C might be used over G13, either in passing, or as a deliberate dissonance or suspension. Of course in the G Mixolydian case, C is of equal importance to any other note.

Philosophers used to argue about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. They were amateurs compared to musicians arguing over theory.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Melody really is pretty much redundant in this G13 discussion.

 

[Zasterz]

Melody really is pretty much redundant in this G13 discussion.

No idea what you mean by this. Melody is king always in my view.

 

[Pete Effamy]

No idea what you mean by this. Melody is king always in my view.

Because it will / can do whatever it likes despite the harmony which, indeed, does make it King.

 

[Zasterz]

Because it will / can do whatever it likes despite the harmony which, indeed, does make it King.

Oh yes, agreed!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Note: Except for frequently by people like Miles Davis and Charlie Parker, as per above. (But those people are like, outliers in Jazz, you know, needn’t concern yourself with them.. 🙄)

But we could always say that they can break the rules because they have mastered the rules.

Melody really is pretty much redundant in this G13 discussion.

But it so often becomes redundant when theory and theorists take over telling musicians what they can't do. I learned that very early on when I sadly got involved in academia. And a big eye opener for me was when playing in public (stop me if I've told you this one) and I invited a girlfriend to a gig that was jazz. Afterwards I asked her what she thought and she answered "it sounded like you were making it up as you went along." Bingo.

 

[cappers]

Afterwards I asked her what she thought and she answered "it sounded like you were making it up as you went along." Bingo.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have moved this discussion from the modes thread as it is completely new and significant topic which has developed into an interesting thread in its own right.

Brief summary​

• This discussion evolved from the assertion that a 13th chord does (or can) include an 11th.
• It can be argued that creating diatonic chords by stacking 3rds means there is a dissonance or clash between 3rd and 11th (4th) and so the 4th is sometimes referred to as an avoid note when improvising (notably by chord/scale method)
• Also notable greats such as Miles davis and Charlie Parker have played 4ths/11ths prominently in improvising (ie not just as passing notes)

There's probably a bit more to it but this will have to do for now as a summary