Theory & Impro Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

[mrblackbat]

I think G13 add 11 is an over-complication that nobody wants to see.

If the 13 falls to a 5th, why wouldn’t you have it harmonised with the 11 falling to the 3rd ? You then get into a sus chord feel. But there are so many ifs and buts it’s crazy unless we talk about it in specific contexts / examples.

I've seen G13 add 11 far more than G13 meaning include an 11th. I'm just saying that almost any player I converse with will see a dominant 13 chord and will not play the 11th as standard. They'll often have questions if the chord is written as G11 for instance.

I'm not alone on this....

 

[mrblackbat]

I don't think I've ever come across that chord symbol, but a quick search shows that many people (and even AI 🙂) thinks it includes the 3rd.

Yes it would have the third in; not saying it wouldn't..... it specifies that the third, seventh, eleventh and thirteenth, all unaltered, would be present. As opposed to a standard practise of seeing say a G13 and automatically inferring it as either no 11th or a #11th. And I know a bunch of pianists who will automatically go to that #11 sound.

 

[mrblackbat]

Regarding avoid notes, In my own teaching I don't advise bothering with the concept. It seems to be something coined by Jamey Aebersold and the chord/scale syllabus which as many of you know is something I eschew. (Originally I did buy into the concept when I took over from another jazz theory lecturer at UOS)

And ironically, this whole discussion is coming out of the chord/scale syllabus: that a G7 chord is mixolydian and so you can play a mixolydian scale over it.....

 

[Pete Effamy]

I've seen G13 add 11 far more than G13 meaning include an 11th. I'm just saying that almost any player I converse with will see a dominant 13 chord and will not play the 11th as standard. They'll often have questions if the chord is written as G11 for instance.

I'm not alone on this....

This implies a rigidity in music that no one dare move from.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And ironically, this whole discussion is coming out of the chord/scale syllabus: that a G7 chord is mixolydian and so you can play a mixolydian scale over it...

Not really the whole discussion because your OP doesn't actually mention chords. It may have just been one post that mentioned a G7 chord is mixolydian, which is in my opinion is not correct. Since then the discussion has been about whether or not a 13th chord can have an 11th, and/or whether any dominant can have a 3rd and an 11th at the same time.

 

[mrblackbat]

This implies a rigidity in music that no one dare move from.

Maybe so, but it's what I will see and hear happen if I give any of the pianists I play with a lead sheet with a dominant 13 chord on.

 

[mrblackbat]

Not really the whole discussion because your OP doesn't actually mention chords. It may have just been one post that mentioned a G7 chord is mixolydian, which is in my opinion is not correct. Since then the discussion has been about whether or not a 13th chord can have an 11th, and/or whether any dominant can have a 3rd and an 11th at the same time.

The particular exchange is documented in a single post here:-

Theory & Impro - Modes - do you think about them derived from a base scale

I’m not sure what you’re replying to. I said nothing about #11. Regular 11 is part of Mixolydian, obviously. Perhaps go read the comments again in sequence: A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian. I understand being annoyed at the overuse of chord/mode pedagogy but those two things...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've seen G13 add 11 far more than G13 meaning include an 11th. I'm just saying that almost any player I converse with will see a dominant 13 chord and will not play the 11th as standard.

Maybe so, but it's what I will see and hear happen if I give any of the pianists I play with a lead sheet with a dominant 13 chord on.

If I give any pianist (or guitarist) a lead sheet with a (dominant) 13th they will very often omit the 11th, and also root, 5th or 9th. All you need is 3rd, 7th and 13th (assuming root is in bass)

However when discussing 11ths in general there is a lot more than the context of a pianist reading chord symbols. In my own work orchestrating or composing I may well be harmonising for a band or orchestra and in that situation I can have an 11th in a 13th chord or not. Any composer has the right to decide on that as they see fit and there is no rule forbidding them.

But the more you look at transcriptions from the greats the more you see it treated as just another note available to play.

Just a quick glance through the Omnibook found three examples in less than two minutes flicking through. Did anyone admonish Bird telling him to do another take without the avoid notes? 🙂

But live and let live, I have no beef with anyone who prefers a 13th without an 11th.

 

[Pete Thomas]

In fact (for once) I agree with AI and Wikipedia (mostly) on this.

 

[mrblackbat]

Any composer has the right to decide on that as they see fit and there is no rule forbidding them.

No of course not, but the thread and general discussion wasn't really about that. And given that the point in the thread where this came up was really about a beginner asking how to think about modes, and thinking about playing over a G7 as mixolydian, even you yourself said about the 11th:-

I think it's called an avoid note because it's not advised for beginners, but I find it to be more of an "approach with caution" note. It can work well especially in a blues context.

Composers can do what the hell they like; let's eschew all this nonsense and go microtonal and ask why the obsession with stack thirds in a G13 anyway.....

 

[mrblackbat]

It's funny I find this happening a lot that you don't understand what I'm trying to say @Pete Thomas

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's funny I find this happening a lot that you don't understand what I'm trying to say @Pete Thomas

Mostly I do understand, just not in this specific case. I thought the discussion was about modes and scales in general not about playing mixolydian over a G7.

The discussion here mostly has been about the theory not chord/scale impro. Although I may have missed something but I'm not perfect.

On topic, it occurred to me that when I see G7 I think that's Gmaj7 with a b7 = mixolydian!

It is a chord not a scale or mode. In other words a mode or scale is not a chord.

A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian.

Correct (although it isn't necessary to voice all the notes). But it is still a chord as opposed to a scale.

It was me that brought up the subject of chord/scale impro as something different, but that was a brief tangent:

And yes, if you are thinking of scales as a pool of notes, e.g. for choosing from when improvising, then it's different.

I did think the discussion was mainly about the theory involved with modes, relative or parallel to major scales with a sub discussion about 11ths and whether or not there should/might/can also be a 3rd present when voicing.

 

[cappers]

Apologies for causing any confusion and deviation with my Q.

As a beginner I'm finding the chord tone approach more helpful than scale/chord method.

My Q was because I noticed that a dominant 7 chord with a flattened 7th fits the mixolydian scale rather than the major scale.
Gmaj - GABCDEF# - Gmaj7 GBDF#
Gmixolydian - GABCDEF - G7 GBDF

Beginning to see patterns and relationships between scales and chords but maybe not naming them correctly.

Thanks.

 

[mizmar]

causing any confusion

You don't cause any (or at least much) confusion...

 

[Pete Thomas]

My Q was because I noticed that a dominant 7 chord with a flattened 7th fits the mixolydian scale rather than the major scale.
Gmaj - GABCDEF# - Gmaj7 GBDF#
Gmixolydian - GABCDEF - G7 GBDF

It also fits a C minor harmonic, or C minor melodic

 

[cappers]

Yes got it, thank you.

Gmaj7 G B D F#
G7 G B D F
Chm C D Eb F G Ab B
Cmm C D Eb F G A B

generically
maj7 1 3 5 7
dom7 1 3 5 b7
hm 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
mm 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

Finding all this fascinating. Reminds me somewhat of reading DNA sequences to determine the codons and amino acids encoded.

 

[mrblackbat]

Apologies for causing any confusion and deviation with my Q.

As a beginner I'm finding the chord tone approach more helpful than scale/chord method.

My Q was because I noticed that a dominant 7 chord with a flattened 7th fits the mixolydian scale rather than the major scale.
Gmaj - GABCDEF# - Gmaj7 GBDF#
Gmixolydian - GABCDEF - G7 GBDF

Beginning to see patterns and relationships between scales and chords but maybe not naming them correctly.

Thanks.

In the context of a chord phrase like a ii7-V7-Imaj7, I personally think the mixolydian thinking is unhelpful. E.g. thinking Dorian for D min7, mixolydian for G7 and Ionian for Cmaj7. Especially, because you could also have a ii-V-I in a minor key - where it would be Dmin7b5 - G7 - Cmin. In that case, the G7 would usually be altered to have a b9 and a b13 - take from the C minor harmonic minor scale. If you played G mixolydian in that context it would sound a little odd.

Now if the piece of music is more modal, and there's simply a G7 chord for 8 bars, then mixolydian thinking is great; but there are also other alternatives that work and sound great - G lydian dominant for example (G-A-B-C#-D-E-F).

It's the big problem with the chord/scale theory, which is where the idea that a G7 chord is intrinsically linked to a G mixolydian mode. Because it can be, but it often isn't.

So for the cases where you have something like a ii-V7-I and you're trying to improvise through it, I think a good approach is to look at voice leading. There are tons of videos online about it, Dave Pollack's are great, and Hal Galper's teachings of Forward Motion are really helpful and resonated a lot with me. The idea there is that you think of where you want to resolve to.

E.g. my chord phrase (or cadence for proper terminology) ends with a resolution to the I chord - let's say it's a B6 chord - B, D#, F#, G#. The chord preceding it is an F#7 chord - F#, A#, C#, E. So there are some nice semitone movements from those chord tones to the target chord - and that's one of the reasons the chords sound nice together - the dominant chord sets up a pull towards the tonic chord. So I might try to look at a line that ends on the B6 chord's third - the D#. That means I can target the last note I play over the F#7 chord as being an E which falls nicely down to the D#, and then end the phrase. (This is where the first beat in the bar is actually the END and the I chord is actually the LAST chord makes sense - think of it as the final work and full stop of your sentence).

The fun thing is - you can now play almost anything (including 11ths hah) over the dominant chord, but because you're targeting going to that E - D# movement, the line will sound like it's intentional and you ended up where you want to go with the harmony. If you then also line up the strong beats with chord tones in the previous bars, then it sounds even more solid.

 

[mrblackbat]

Yes got it, thank you.

Gmaj7 G B D F#
G7 G B D F
Chm C D Eb F G Ab B
Cmm C D Eb F G A B

generically
maj7 1 3 5 7
dom7 1 3 5 b7
hm 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
mm 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

Finding all this fascinating. Reminds me somewhat of reading DNA sequences to determine the codons and amino acids encoded.

I think what Pete meant is that the G7 chord lives just as happily in a melodic minor scale, or a harmonic minor scale, as it does a mixolydian mode or a major scale.

So you could have:-

G7 - G mixolydian. Modal thinking, G is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. If you want to add extensions, you'll add 9th, 11th, 13th - A, C, E.
G7 - C major. Major harmonic thinking. C is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. If you want to add extensions, you might add the 9th and 13th. A, E. (The 11th is generally not played as per above).
G7 - C minor harmonic. Minor thinking. C is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. If you want to add extensions, you might add a b9, b13 - Ab, Eb. This helps give the characteristic harmonic minor sound running up from the G - G-Ab-B-C. With the alterations the fifth may well get dropped.
G7 - C melodic minor. Melodic minor thinking. C is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. Alteration would be the 9th and the b13 - A and Eb. With the alterations, the fifth may well get dropped.
G7alt - also a C minor approach. C is your tonic. The chord has G B F, but no 5th (at least not an unaltered one). Instead you would think of the G altered scale, which comes from Ab minor melodic - G, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F.

And the best bit is, they can all (mostly) be interchangeable.

 

[Zasterz]

(The 11th is generally not played as per above).

Note: Except for frequently by people like Miles Davis and Charlie Parker, as per above. (But those people are like, outliers in Jazz, you know, needn’t concern yourself with them.. 🙄)

 

[Pete Thomas]

G7 - G mixolydian. Modal thinking, G is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. If you want to add extensions, you'll add 9th, 11th, 13th - A, C, E.
G7 - C major. Major harmonic thinking. C is your tonic. The chord still has G B D F. If you want to add extensions, you might add the 9th and 13th. A, E. (The 11th is generally not played as per above).

IMO the second is way better unless we are considering modal impro, e.g. jazz or funk wehere there is just one chord G7 and G is the tonal center.

If you have a IIm7 V7 I in C then any scale you may think of for the Dm7 and G7 (if you want to think scales) should be a C scale as above. C major or C harmonic minor are both good. Harmonic minor even if its a G9 or G13 as the Ab and Eb are bluesy sounding. And in this case mixolydian can be thrown out of the window.