Theory & Impro Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

[lydian]

The natural 4th can sound great over major chords when you want a sus kind of sound. I use it on the blues all the time to great effect. But if you never resolve it, sounds terrible and wrong. You can use any note in the chromatic scale on any chord in any key as long as you resolve it well. Zaster's example of a 4th used in the melody is an excellent example. It's all about context.

We only call 4ths and similar notes "avoid" notes to give beginners a safe pallet to work with. Truth is, once you learn how to improvise, absolutely any note can work just fine.

 

[progger]

In my experience, in any contemporary American music from the mid-20thC onward that uses any sort of extended harmony, the #11 is considered default for any extended chord with a major third (and the major 13 is the default for an extended minor chord). And yes, those correspond to lydian (for major), lydian dominant (for dominant), and dorian (for minor). That isn't to say that natural fours/elevens can't occur with a major third, and of course they can, but mixolydian tends to be the go-to sound for a suspended dominant sound (where, yes, the major third sounds quite nice).

These things are subcultural and colloquial, they can always change based on context and aren't codified as thoroughly as European common practice terminology. But I've observed these tendencies to be pretty consistent in jazz and anything related to it, as well as plenty of late Romantic and early modern European orchestral music (Ravel, Debussy, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Scriabin, etc). Not that those guys are using chord symbols like I would... but the harmonies are all there, and if there's something like a fully extended G13 chord happening, you'll almost certainly be hearing a C#, not a C.

 

[cappers]

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Well a minor 3rd on a major 7 (or triad) does clash IMO.

I meant since minor chords have a b3, the 4th of the scale wouldn't clash with the 3rd of the chord (didn't mean playing a minor 3rd on a maj7).

I've been doing some interval training, on keyboard and sax, trying to get the feel of chord tones and intervals. This is probably old hat to experienced and knowledgable amongst you, but I think the consonance/dissonance of certain notes/intervals follows the sequence:

R357 26 4
<---------->
Con Dis


Phew! So much I don't know.
Step by step, as if eating an elephant.
Thanks

 

[Zasterz]

I think the consonance/dissonance of certain notes/intervals follows the sequence:

R357 26 4
<---------->
Con Dis

Close. 5 is after R. Actually I would say
R octave 5 3 6 2 7 4 but a lot depends on chord/interval quality (minor/major/diminished).

 

[mizmar]

but I think the consonance/dissonance o

As a side note, the video linked below explains all consonant/dissonant intervals for a complete continuous change (not just notes) of frequencies...
... For tubes and strings, anyway

Post in thread 'This is exactly how dissonant each interval is' Theory & Impro - This is exactly how dissonant each interval is

 

[cappers]

R357 26 4

Close. 5 is after R. Actually I would say octave 5 3 6 2 7 4 but a lot depends on chord/interval quality (minor/major/diminished).

Just checked my notes and I've written "R 5 3 7 2 6 4" not R 3 5......
Thanks

 

[Zasterz]

Just checked my notes and I've written "R 5 3 7 2 6 4" not R 3 5......
Thanks

But worth putting octave in there too imo, as separate from R. Think of if you have a drone playing and you’re going to play a second note against it and evaluate how transparent the resulting sound is. Meaning how much does it sound like a single tone versus two being played at once? Root (unison) is going to be more transparent than octave, where you first start to hear a second note happening.

 

[mrblackbat]

Never would suggest otherwise. My point was that’s the same whether you think G7, G13 or G Mixolydian.

Well no, because you don’t play a #11 on mixolydian; it wouldn’t be mixolydian if you did.

 

[mrblackbat]

Except when it sounds OK in context of course. I think it's called an avoid note because it's not advised for beginners, but I find it to be more of an "approach with caution" note. It can work well especially in a blues context.

Certainly with voicing when arranging it sounds (IMO) wrong when there is a b9 interval between the 3rd and 11th, but on inside parts where it is just a semitone it can sound fine and crunchy.

Flat 9 would again alter the chord from sounding mixolydian though, which is the context that was brought up in: I.e. a dominant 13 chord does not really mean Mixolydian: it would usually a V chord of something.

I personally actually quite like the clash that the 4th/11th creates, but it depends on context. And of course if it’s a sus chord obviously it will sound great because the 3rd is no longer present.

But if the chord is a straight up 13 chord, with no other alterations, you’re not going to voice the 11th in any block chord voicings, and typically use it as a passing note only if adhering to conventional harmony.

Anyway back on modes, the best way to talk about them and learn to hear them is with the same root: so C Ionian and C Mixolydian etc. that way you can actually hear the difference between the mode sound, whereas playing a C major scale and then a G Mixolydian it’s very unlikely that your brain will separate out sounds and you’ll just hear the same scale. The context of the C root will still be present and sound like ‘home’, at least until you’ve done the work to hear the sound and ground it.

 

[Zasterz]

Well no, because you don’t play a #11 on mixolydian; it wouldn’t be mixolydian if you did.

I’m not sure what you’re replying to. I said nothing about #11. Regular 11 is part of Mixolydian, obviously.

 

[mrblackbat]

I understood how certain intervals don't usually work well together, unless intended for effect.
But it still eluded me in playing, why a certain note in the scale clashed on a chord.

@mrblackbat 's comment made me revisit chord structure and it clicked.
A 4th (11th) over a dominant chord will clash with the 3rd. e.g. F in Cmaj jars with the E, C in Gmaj with B, G in Dmaj with F#, Bb in Fmaj with A and so on, being a semitone/half step different.

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Please correct if wrong or missing something.

Easiest way to hear this is to sit at a piano and play them. Root position triads, add the seventh, then add the extension. Then isolate to just the clashing notes, the third and the 11th in this case.

One of the reasons the clash kind of stinks here is because the third is really what goes the chord it’s identity, and is the strongest identifying note in a chord. The root and fifth give you a ‘home’ sound (a fifth actually pretty much sounds and feels like the root and can actually be one of the hardest notes to identify in scale degrees), but they don’t identify the flavour. The third and seventh do that, with the third being the stronger.

The issue with a major chord and the 11th is not only are they a semitone (or a minor 9th) apart which clashes, but they muddy the flavour. Take an Emaj7 chord - E, G#, B, D# and play it. The 11th is an A so add that on top (tell me it doesn’t sound like a wrong note!); but now you also have a chord that sounds like an A chord - drop the A to the root and the chord immediately sounds more consonant and lovely, but the G# no longer sounds like a third at all, but the major 7th. Add in a C# and it cements that sound, which would be an A maj9#11 which is a very consonant sound.

With a dominant 7, the sound is even more confused, because the two chords produced are BOTH 11 chords (this time the A would be a Amaj7 add 11) with the same identity destabilising sound. Switch between the two and it’s difficult to hear a character change.

This matters in terms of conventional harmony because of the feel of chords - dominant chords are unstable and sound as if they want to to go somewhere, and the third and seventh both have pulls a semitone away to the tonic chord; the maj7 chord which in turn sounds like ‘home’. With an 11th present, they can both be home and both be an unstable chord at the same time. Which is great of that’s how you want things to sound of course.

 

[Zasterz]

a dominant 13 chord does not really mean Mixolydian

Don’t understand what you mean by this. The notes of a dominant 13 chord are the exact same as the Mixolydian mode. I can play G13 as V of C and I can play the Mixolydian mode over it and I can add a regular 11 to that chord.

One of the reasons the clash kind of stinks here is because the third is really what goes the chord it’s identity, and is the strongest identifying note in a chord.

Doesn’t stink to me.

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

 

[mrblackbat]

I’m not sure what you’re replying to. I said nothing about #11. Regular 11 is part of Mixolydian, obviously.

Perhaps go read the comments again in sequence:

A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian. I understand being annoyed at the overuse of chord/mode pedagogy but those two things are the same collection of pitches.

Regardless of whether you play the chord or just outline it, the 4th/11th over a dominant chord fairly stinks. Hence why it gets called an avoid note.

As such folk often will play a #11 whether it’s indicated or not, further putting pay to the idea that a V chord is myxolydian

Never would suggest otherwise. My point was that’s the same whether you think G7, G13 or G Mixolydian.

Well no, because you don’t play a #11 on mixolydian; it wouldn’t be mixolydian if you did.

A dominant 13 chord is made up of:

1,3,5,7,9,13

No 11.

And if you’re going to play an 11 over a dominant chord, it will usually be a sharp 11.

So: there is no 11 in a 13 chord: a 13 chord does NOT contain all the notes of a Mixolydian mode. Nor is a dominant chord an indication to play a Mixolydian mode.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Certainly with voicing when arranging it sounds (IMO) wrong when there is a b9 interval between the 3rd and 11th, but on inside parts where it is just a semitone it can sound fine and crunchy.

Flat 9 would again alter the chord from sounding mixolydian though, which is the context that was brought up in: I.e. a dominant 13 chord does not really mean Mixolydian: it would usually a V chord of something.

Except I was not talking about a ♭9 chord, but the interval between the 3rd and 11.

But if the chord is a straight up 13 chord, with no other alterations, you’re not going to voice the 11th in any block chord voicings, and typically use it as a passing note only if adhering to conventional harmony.

I have used the 11th in block chord voicing as I believe it can sound great, especially when close to the 3rd as mentioned above. It’s all about context rather than rules.

 

[mrblackbat]

Don’t understand what you mean by this. The notes of a dominant 13 chord are the exact same as the Mixolydian mode. I can play G13 as V of C and I can play the Mixolydian mode over it and I can add a regular 11 to that chord.



Doesn’t stink to me.

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

Play the 11th and hold it. Or even better resolve to it.

 

[mrblackbat]

Except I was not talking about a ♭9 chord, but the interval between the 3rd and 11.


I have used the 11th in block chord voicing as I believe it can sound great, especially when close to the 3rd as mentioned above. It’s all about context rather than rules.

Great and nice are two different things though.

Somewhere, every time you voice that 11th, a cute fairy dies.

 

[Zasterz]

there is no 11 in a 13 chord: a 13 chord does NOT contain all the notes of a Mixolydian mode.

In music theory a 13th chord includes the 11th, whether or not it’s included in the particular voicing you’re using.

Play the 11th and hold it. Or even better resolve to it.

I literally did.

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

 

[mrblackbat]

In music theory a 13th chord includes the 11th, whether or not it’s included in the particular voicing you’re using.

View attachment 33101



I literally did.

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

No you immediately resolve it which turns the sound into a sus chord with the resolution down to a third; well known musical device.

And in your link:

“In the common practice period the "most common" pitches present in V13 chord are the root, 3rd, 7th, and 13th; with the 5th, 9th, and 11th "typically omitted".”

 

[Zasterz]

No you resolve it. It sounds like a sus chord.

A proper sus chord doesn’t include the 3rd (otherwise what would you be suspending?) In jazz people often play it anyway, but that doesn’t change the definition.

 

[mrblackbat]

A proper sus chord doesn’t include the 3rd. In jazz people often play it anyway, but that doesn’t change the definition.
View attachment 33103

Indeed, but if you include the 11th, the SOUND of a dominant chord becomes one of a sus, especially when you resolve the note down. If you add the third back in, it still sounds the same way. Your ears are way more important than a wiki page when it comes to music.

So: play your little thing again, just the start but stop before you resolve the 11th anywhere, so just that first chord and the first three melody notes.

Tell me that doesn’t sound like you’re playing a wrong note.