Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Colin the Bear]

It really doesn't matter how other people accomplish what they do. Aim high and keep going.

 

[Jeanette]

But for me, it's a long process to do either 🙁

Think of it as a never ending journey and enjoy it, don't measure yourself against others, they may have more or less background knowledge, more or less time to spend on it etc.......

Jx

 

[jimmylh]

Think of it as a never ending journey and enjoy it, don't measure yourself against others, they may have more or less background knowledge, more or less time to spend on it etc.......

Jx

It is a never ending journey for sure. I started late so it will be interesting see how far I can go with it. I do have goals I would like to hit. One is, if I were ever to play in public, I want to sound like I know what I'm doing. To me that would make me feel like a real musician. Like my teacher says, if you don't sound musical, the rest don't mean a thing.

 

[Nick Wyver]

One is, if I were ever to play in public, I want to sound like I know what I'm doing.

It's also quite nice to feel like you know what you're doing.

 

[Lesley]

Don't give up what ever you do! Life's a journey enjoy the ride🙂..

 

[Bernie]

I just wondered how long it took Bernie to learn a piece of jazz, by ear and if it was relative to the length of time that he has been playing the sax. For instance have you always been able to quickly master something or have you grown better at it over time. Apologies if this has already been addressed, I got a bit lost.

I did grade 1 piano when I was 8 or so, my Auntie Dorothy taught me, since then I've played different kinds of music by ear on various instruments, blues, rock, pop songs, I've played a lot of traditional Irish fiddle, some accordion, tin whistle, guitar, I can pick out the chords for reasonably simple songs on the guitar, by ear.

I can play various instruments "ok", meaning that I play in reasonable time, in reasonable tune, I can play with other people and not make things any worse with my contributions, but I'm very definitely not a virtuoso on any instrument.

I played sax for 3 years or so about 25 years ago, and I picked it up again about 6 months ago.

Some jazz tunes I can play straight away, if I know the melody. Some ballads, bluesy tunes. Other tunes can take me a long time to learn, I've noticed that I find it difficult for example when a tune repeats a similar but not identical melody a semitone or a tone lower, that feels like a tongue-twister to me. I can generally sing these tunes, so the problem is with my technique on the sax, my lack of familiarity with it.

 

[ProfJames]

My ear wasn't available for music as the back of dad's hand was normally on it or at least approaching it at speed! First real chance to get involved in music was after the girl chasing, marriage, kids, divorce.......aah......some spare time for me and a little spare cash to buy an instrument and have some lessons. Great fun.

In addition Gas is so easy with bass guitars. You can buy a reasonable one for the price of an average mouthpiece! I have my eye on two more additions (well eight really).

 

[Bernie]

With all due respect, no you aren't🙂 you're learning how to get through tunes flying by the seat of your pants and hoping something sounds OK. That is guessing what should come next. NOT jazz improvisation in the context that most jazz player knows it to mean.

Here's a few quotes for you to consider Chris:

Pete Thomas:

Intro to Improvising Jazz
There are many different schools of thought on how to teach or learn jazz improvisation. Some people recommend learning all the relevant scales and how they fit chord sequences, some recommend learning lots of established phrases, licks and patterns, some recommend just learning and playing tunes by ear. The best jazz improvisers often can’t explain the process, it is something totally intangible: a combination of intuition, imagination and great ears.
There are some improvisers who know relatively little theory but have the rare gift of hearing the chord changes and automatically knowing what to play. For the majority the best results come from a combination of hard study (private and tutored), lots of focussed practice, regular playing with other people and listening to the greats.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have used one of the modern approaches of using scales to approach improvisation over chord changes, although I have emphasised several times that this approach, though useful at first, should never dominate the true art of improvisation which relies more on melodic inspiration and original use of the “jazz language”.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About Forrest Wernick

A little info

I grew up in the Bay Area of California. I’ve lived throughout the country (California, Colorado, New York) learning and playing music extensively. When I’m not playing saxophone, you can find me rock climbing, drawing, trail running, and training in Muay Thai.
Education

University of Denver, Lamont School of Music, Jazz Studies/Saxophone, BM
William Paterson University, Jazz Studies/Saxophone, MM
Teachers

Studied extensively with: Art Bouton, Eric Gunnison, Harold Mabern, Rich Perry
Took a few lessons with: Adam Niewood, David Demsey, Donny McCaslin, Peter sommer, Rich Chiaraluce, Seamus Blake
Some other teachers I spent a lot of time with were: Al Hood, Alan Joseph, Keith Oxman, Kenny Walker, Lynn Baker, Mulgrew Miller

Forrest says:

The best way to learn standards is from the record – period. This will become apparent after learning a few songs by ear. Each time, the process will become much easier and you’ll internalize the song from the beginning. Today, the standards that I recall without fail are the ones that I’ve learned by ear, straight from the records with my horn in hand.
Learning tunes aurally not only benefits memorization and retention, but is also great ear training. The key is to start learning from the records right away.​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is from a guy called Rick: Online Ear Training, Jazz Trumpet Blog, Atlanta Jazz | IWasDoingAllRight

LEARNING TO IMPROVISE - SERIES INTRODUCTION

During my first two years of college, I was a jazz studies major. Since I transferred schools after my first year, I got to experience (at least part of) the jazz curriculums of two different universities. In each school I did well in my music classes, however I wasn't dramatically improving as a jazz musician. Sure, I knew more information about jazz, especially jazz theory, but that knowledge wasn't translating itself into my playing. I wasn't alone, either. As the months passed, many struggling players (including me) would eventually drop out or change majors, each believing they'd never be good enough to play jazz professionally. Some of us even gave up playing jazz altogether, as I did for seven years.
When I finally started to play the trumpet again (summer of 2002), I was eager to find a new approach to learning jazz improvisation that would take me farther than my previous jazz education. I wanted results! During my search, I read several new books and visited dozens of jazz web sites and forums. For the most part, everything I read followed the same old approach that I was all too familiar with: start with a description of swing rhythms and accents, then briefly cover topics like transcribing, learning patterns, playing melodically, and finally move on to several chapters of complex and long-winded jazz theory lessons. No matter what I read, at least 50% of the discussion was about jazz theory.
At the same time I was reading about jazz improvisation, I started reading jazz biographies and interviews with legendary jazz musicians. Among other things, I learned that several top jazz musicians didn't know how to read music, and many more knew far less theory than was contained in the average jazz improvisation book. This really surprised me. After all, jazz education's heavy emphasis on theory would suggest that jazz theory is must-have information, as if you couldn't possibly be good without complete mastery. But that just isn't the case.
As I continued to read and learn about great jazz musicians, I found that there is a skill common to all of them. Oddly, it's a skill that is rarely discussed in mainstream jazz education. That skill is the ability to play by ear. All great jazz musicians can play accurately and effortless by ear. And actually, it's this skill that first and foremost guides them in deciding what to play.
If the ability to play by ear is shared by all great jazz musicians, why do very few jazz method books and classrooms ever mention it? And, if knowledge of jazz theory isn't essential, then why do ALL jazz books and classrooms spend so much time talking about it? (for possible answers, read my jazz theory article). These questions are even more perplexing when I think about the fact that NONE of the struggling players I've known can play well (or at all) by ear, yet most have had a decent grasp of theory. We didn't need to learn more theory, we needed to learn to play by ear!
Convinced that jazz education missed the mark on the importance of playing by ear, I started thinking about the other key issues plaguing struggling players and how those issues could be overcome. Once I felt I had some worthwhile suggestions, I started writing, and that's how my Learning to Improvise series was born. Since my Learning To Improvise guide is geared toward beginners and otherwise struggling players, it's pretty light on details. My goal is simply to present a foundation from which developing players can grow. There's a lot more out there that you can and should learn about jazz improvisation.
The topics I'll cover include:

• Listening To Jazz
• Ear Training
• Rhythm & Phrasing
• Motifs & Cohesive Solos
• Vocal Improvisation
• Transcription
• Jazz Theory

Topics like transcription are already mainstays of jazz education, so I'm not exactly breaking new ground with this series. But, I do think I'm presenting each topic in a somewhat original fashion that's easy to understand. As you read, keep in mind that all of this stuff requires practice and patience. You won't improve simply by reading alone (I wish it was that easy!). In fact, many of these topics can take several years of practice to master. That's fine. Keep at it. The rewards are well worth the effort.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Thanks for that, Bernie.
That last link contained a lot of sense, but particularly relevant for this thread was this:

SHOULD WE LEARN JAZZ THEORY?

If you're serious about learning jazz improvisation, then I strongly suggest that you learn at least some jazz theory. In the case of jazz improvisation, theory primarily serves to explain which notes sound good over which chords. Without this knowledge, you'd have to figure everything out by ear, and your skills/talents would have to be good enough to do that in real-time. My ears aren't that good, and even with constant ear training I probably won't ever reach the level of those legendary players who could play everything entirely by ear. So, for people like myself, theory bridges the gap between what we can and cannot hear. Rather than wonder which chords are being played, we can look at a chart and have everything spelled out for us.
There are several other benefits to knowing jazz theory, including:
COMPOSITION AND ARRANGING

When writing tunes, you can use theory to combine chord progressions and harmonies in sequences that you know sound good together. Likewise, you can use your knowledge of theory to reharmonize existing progressions into new and/or more harmonically interesting progressions.
SIGHT READING

If you have to play unfamiliar tunes in front of an audience or for a recording session, you'll definitely want as much information ahead of time as you can get. Being able to read chord changes will take a lot of the burden off of your ears (and nerves).
EAR TRAINING

That's right, theory can help you with your ear training studies! Rather than rely totally on your ears, theory can help you find those next notes. For instance, if you identify a perfect 4th (1st 2 notes of "Here Comes the Bride") and you know the starting note is an F, then you can use theory to determine that the next note is a Bb. Ideally, you want to be able to do all of this with your ears, but as mentioned earlier, theory can bridge the gap between what you can and cannot hear.
LEARNING THE SOUND OF JAZZ

Playing scales, arpeggios, and chord progressions will help train your ear to identify the sound of jazz melodies and harmonies.
UNDERSTANDING MUSIC

The old phrase "knowledge is power" comes to mind. The more you know about something, the easier it is to understand and use. While this is true with jazz, it's important to remember that jazz is an artform. All the knowledge in the world will not make you an artist. It's how you apply that knowledge that counts!
STIMULATES NEW IDEAS

Advanced theory concepts such as chord substitutions and alterations can help players unlock new sounds and directions in their playing. For some people, these ideas are easier to come by when visualized and/or thought of from a mathematical/structured approach.
Of course, all of the above can be accomplished solely by ear, but to do this you'd need exceptional aural skills. Believe me, you'd know if you're one of those people. If you make mistakes playing by ear, or if you accidentally play "wrong" notes, then you aren't one of them... sorry!

 

[jimmylh]

It's also quite nice to feel like you know what you're doing.

Yep, that too. Hope I live that long.

 

[Bernie]

Thanks for that, Bernie.
That last link contained a lot of sense, but particularly relevant for this thread was this: [stuff about why you should know some theory]

It would be unfortunate if that was taken as the most important thing he has to say though. His central point that we need to be able to play by ear is much more relevant and significant to us here as musicians, in particular because as we've seen, he's right, people are not learning this essential skill at all.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Yup. This bit sums it up:

It's really up to you how far you want to go with theory. Whatever you do decide to focus on, be sure you spend AT LEAST as much time working on ear training skills as you do working on theory. And be sure you aren't moving too quickly from one skill to another. For instance, it would be silly to start learning chord substitutions if you still haven't learned the blues.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I found this quote from one of the early Jazz greats.

#" In the future there will be the internet and this will seriously curtail practice time"

 

[Nick Wyver]

I found this quote from one of the early Jazz greats.

#" In the future there will be the internet and this will seriously curtail practice time"

Ah, but you can have a serious drink when you're spouting ******** on the internet. Having a serious drink when you're practising (unless you're Zoot Sims) is probably inadvisable.

 

[Veggie Dave]

I find a glass of wine makes practising much more civilised. 🙂

 

[Lesley]

Lets face it Alice...Bernie is miles ahead of us with his musical skills..well me anyway...so lets plod on and and enjoy what we accomplish 🙂

 

[Lesley]

I find a glass of wine makes practising much more civilised. 🙂

Maybe....

 

[Jez Watson]

It seems to me that Bernie is saying what we are all in essence saying, but Bernie is making a strong case that the "ear" part is vital, which i have to agree with and i am sure we all do.
When i went to music college i noticed that i was streets ahead on the aural stuff because i had learnt that many bass lines by ear and had made a point of understanding the relationship of what i was hearing to the harmonic content/structure of the music, i think this is the important part of applying what you know by ear and relating it to the theory so that we can use the theory to help us learn the sound of that which our ears dont yet understand, thats how it has worked for me.

 

[Bernie]

Lets face it Alice...Bernie is miles ahead of us with his musical skills..well me anyway...so lets plod on and and enjoy what we accomplish 🙂

Er, just to add a bit of balance could I point out that we have learned today that Bernie despite several decades of attempting to play tunes and improvise is still:

a. Learning how to get through tunes flying by the seat of his pants and hoping something sounds OK. That is guessing what should come next. NOT jazz improvisation in the context that most jazz player knows it to mean.

and

b. A very naughty boy who doesn't know his scales AT ALL!

 

[jbtsax]

My strongest disagreement is with the notion that playing through listening and understanding music through study of music theory is an "either or" proposition. Neither one is more important than the other. They are both important depending upon which type of ensemble one plays in and the style of music being played.