Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Tenor Viol]

I don't really believe this stuff. Obviously there are different personality types, but I don't think it's all as mechanical and inflexible as you suggest here.

But also I don't believe you (or anybody) logically or practically requires an explanation of something like major and minor keys in order to be able to distinguish them.

That's an inference, I didn't say that.

 

[Chris]

Seeing how I got quoted, here's yet another little story. A certain vibes player, used to work with a sax player who didn't read or do theory that well, but had great ears, but the vibes player could still tell when the sax player was uncertain of what was going to happen next. Once he caught the first note the sax player was back in control.

Also @Bernie so you know the tune by ear and where it goes to next. How about when you get a 'Pro' pianist that wants to use lots of chord subs and improvise on the changes themselves? I'm sorry but you can't play/learn jazz improvisation with no theory. Most players find that as there general playing improves over time so does there ear,
yes to the point where they know where certain changes are going.

For individuals blessed with a good ear for music to start with then perhaps the ear path might be one to have a look at, for mere mortals like the rest of us, I for one like to know what I'm playing. Both will take time to develop to a good standard, but the theory path at least allows me to talk to other musicians in a language that is universal. So if a keys player says he would like the try the 'bridge' up a minor third, or singer wants the song down a 'semitone' I have an idea of what is happening.

From a personal point of view I picked up a sax for the first time about 5 yrs ago, so began learning to read/theory. What you hear is where I am today, when I post something, good, bad or just OK. I'm just
having a lot of fun and the wrong notes are getting fewer.

 

[Bernie]

Could you try explaining it.

People have said things like "I envy your ability to play by ear"; "the ultimate goal is to play by ear, but I think that may be beyond my reach". Chris said "For individuals blessed with a good ear for music to start with then perhaps the ear path might be one to have a look at, for mere mortals like the rest of us, I for one like to know what I'm playing".

But then they (e.g. Jeanette) don't put any significant time and effort into trying to play by ear. I have to assume that their teachers, if they have them, don't advise or require them to spend any time practising playing by ear.

I think every "normal" person has a good ear for music to start with, but they are never taught and never practise using this capacity, and end up believing it's something "mere mortals" can't do.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I think every "normal" person has a good ear for music to start with

After 26 years of teaching I'm not sure that's the case. Unless, of course, you define "normal" as someone who has a good ear.
But, yes, if you practise doing it you get better at it.
I'd advocate using whatever method is appropriate for the situation.
Anyway, you have to accept that not everyone cares a great deal about playing by ear. For instance, it has rather limited application in classical music where reading skills are considerably more important. It's still music and can be very enjoyable.

 

[aldevis]

Years ago I had a regular gig with a non jazz pianist that, due to being blind, could only memorize or play "by ear". (Braille musical writing still requires to memorize all the notes, and he isn't a fan). He could comp me on many standards and, as a personal challenge, I did not use any charts myself.
When we eventually checked the original chords, we realized how much we actually simplified the harmonic progressions in our minds.

 

[Colin the Bear]

And the big question is.................. Did George Shearing know theory? Is there a Brail theory book? Is that reading the dots?

I've always had an interest in how things work. Some things disassemble and re assemble quite easily. For others I need a manual.

Playing tunes was quite satisfying for a time but as the ear develops more eclectic and sophisticated tastes and the wish to reproduce some of what's been heard, beckoned, ear alone wasn't enough. I needed a manual.

The extra theory I've picked up on this forum and the motivation to apply it and pick up more has been invaluable.

The depth of knowledge, skill, musicianship and patience of some members astonishes and humbles me.

 

[aldevis]

And the big question is.................. Did George Shearing know theory? Is there a Brail theory book? Is that reading the dots?

About Braille music writing there is a good literature. Of course all the notes (reading the dots indeed) need to be memorized, so it is sometimes easier to "listen and repeat" with all the limits that it has with interpretation.
My friend (that makes his living singing and playing piano in hotels) has a good theory knowledge and we were speaking the same "language" when discussing chords, even if he is not too familiar with jazz.

For obvious reasons, his memory is highly trained, but he used a braille vocal synthesis (a tool that nowadays is probably obsolete) to write down songs lyrics.

We also shared a flat for five months in a holiday resort, but most of the stories are unsuitable for a family forum.

 

[Bernie]

Also @Bernie so you know the tune by ear and where it goes to next. How about when you get a 'Pro' pianist that wants to use lots of chord subs and improvise on the changes themselves?

I don't see why that should be any more of a problem for an "ear" player. Can you explain?

I'm sorry but you can't play/learn jazz improvisation with no theory.

But...I am?

 

[Chris]

@Bernie

Well if the pianist decides to re harmonize a tune by using tritone substitutions on the V7 chords along with adding it's relative iim7, unless you knew what it was note wise your ear wouldn't find it, until it was too late.

This thread explains the basics Chord Substitution and Improv

"But.. I am?"

With all due respect, no you aren't🙂 you're learning how to get through tunes flying by the seat of your pants and hoping something sounds OK. That is guessing what should come next. NOT jazz improvisation in the context that most jazz player knows it to mean. Then again it all depends on what type of jazz is being played🙂

 

[jbtsax]

The basic chord progression in jazz is the ii V7 I and its variations. That is "music theory".

• What gives jazz its characteristic sound are the "altered notes" (notes not found in the key) that are added to the V or V7 to add to the "tension" of that harmony before it resolves to the I and releases that "tension". This is also "music theory".
  
• These altered notes include: b9, #9, #11, #5 in addition to the root, 3rd, and 7th that define the dominant chord. This is also "music theory".
  
• In the key of D the dominant chord is A7. The A7 with all of these added "altered notes" is spelled:

A - root
C# - 3rd
E# - #5
G - 7th
Bb - b9
B# - #9
D# - #11​

• Using enharmonics the scale created using these notes is: A Bb C Db Eb F G A (theory)
• The melodic minor scale (natural minor with a raised 7th) beginning on Bb is spelled: Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, A, Bb (theory)
• The Bb melodic minor scale beginning on the 7th (A) (locrian mode) gives the scale which includes all of the altered notes of the A7 dominant chord: A Bb C Db Eb F G A. This is called the "super locrian".

Another way to view the "super locrian" is that the first 5 notes are the "diminished scale" (HWHWHW) and the last 5 notes are the "whole tone" scale. (theory)

While improvising over the ii V7 I if one can hear the b9, #9, #11, #5 and just add them by listening, more power to them. For the rest of us there is "theory" to help us out.

 

[aldevis]

Also defining rhythm is music theory.
I am incidentally listening to this:
knowing that the bass drum hits the 3rd and 4th crotchet of a 2/2 bar helps not to get lost.
Only a guitar hint marks the downbeat.

Of course you can spend weeks of full immersion in the afoxe world....
(note: the original is by Djavan, but I love this version)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrKIbMqkrgg

 

[Veggie Dave]

And, just to throw a spanner in the works, we have Zappa on II-V-I, music theory and music in general. As you can probably guess, it contains some adult themes. 😉

 

[Pete Thomas]

knowing that the bass drum hits the 3rd and 4th crotchet of a 2/2 bar helps not to get lost.

Funny how we theorise things differently. I hear that in 4/4 not 2/2, ie i am counting half the time and I hear the bass drum double (eighth) hits on beats 2 and 4 ie 2 and & 4 and. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

 

[aldevis]

Funny how we theorise things differently. I hear that in 4/4 not 2/2, ie i am counting half the time and I hear the bass drum double (eighth) hits on beats 2 and 4 ie 2 and & 4 and. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

In theory you are wrong 🙂
I just used 2/2 (actually cut-time) only for analogy with other latin styles. It might well be 4/4 in the original Djavan.
Music notation probably is not common in the afoxê genre, and Djavan's song is a tribute anyway.

 

[aldevis]

And, just to throw a spanner in the works, we have Zappa on II-V-I, music theory and music in general. As you can probably guess, it contains some adult themes. 😉

He goes a bit more precise and less provocative in this unmissable book:
The Real Frank Zappa Book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"I like Charle Mingus" says a lot. The man wasn't just a conceptual musician. He knew his theory and his rules very well, probably to feel a deeper pleasure when breaking them.

 

[Alice]

I don't see why that should be any more of a problem for an "ear" player. Can you explain?



But...I am?

Bernie, how long have you been playing the sax? I can't remember.
I will have been playing/learning for nine months by March. I'm not "there" with my tone consistently just yet and i'm behind on my theory lessons because my tutor has been away for the last couple of months. I opted not to do the grades, at least not just yet because I didn't want to impose what I felt was quite a rigid regime upon myself at this stage.
I'm keen to learn and pick things up very quickly once I am taught how but I haven't been taught one single Jazz or Blues song yet. I am teaching myself by ear when I find that the notes in my my books (song books for Alto) are too complicated for me to read and understand fluently yet. I listen to the tracks of my favourite versions of a tune and try figuring it out. But for me, it's a long process to do either 🙁

 

[ProfJames]

Bernie, how long have you been playing the sax? I can't remember.
I will have been playing/learning for nine months by March. I'm not "there" with my tone consistently just yet and i'm behind on my theory lessons because my tutor has been away for the last couple of months. I opted not to do the grades, at least not just yet because I didn't want to impose what I felt was quite a rigid regime upon myself at this stage.
I'm keen to learn and pick things up very quickly once I am taught how but I haven't been taught one single Jazz or Blues song yet. I am teaching myself by ear when I find that the notes in my my books (song books for Alto) are too complicated for me to read and understand fluently yet. I listen to the tracks of my favourite versions of a tune and try figuring it out. But for me, it's a long process to do either 🙁

Doesn't matter how long it takes @Alice. There is no race and you are competing with no one else. Just enjoy

 

[Tenor Viol]

:Alice - steady plugging away will work. Try to join a community group/band/orchestra - it helps in all sorts of ways, not least in giving you people to share common experiences with and playing with someone better than you pulls you along too.

 

[Alice]

I just wondered how long it took Bernie to learn a piece of jazz, by ear and if it was relative to the length of time that he has been playing the sax. For instance have you always been able to quickly master something or have you grown better at it over time. Apologies if this has already been addressed, I got a bit lost.

 

[Veggie Dave]

The man wasn't just a conceptual musician. He knew his theory and his rules very well, probably to feel a deeper pleasure when breaking them.

The only thing more fun than breaking rules is knowing that you're breaking rules. 😀

I find Zappa to be rather hit and miss, but his hits are superb and I always had the impression he'd be a really cool guy to hang out with.