Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Jeanette]

What I had in mind was, how many hours have you spent learning to play by reading music, and how many hours have you spent learning to play by ear? I don't want to know the number of hours, it's more the ratio between the two that is of interest.

Let's make sure my understanding of playing by ear is correct first 🙂

 

[Jeanette]

No, I mean not looking at written music.

Hmm all we get are chord sheets so for me that isn't written music.

But actually the first one I did I think I was told use notes from x major scale so it probably doesn't meet your definition of playing purely by ear.

Let's say 5 hours 🙂

Jx

 

[Bernie]

Hmm all we get are chord sheets so for me that isn't written music.

But actually the first one I did I think I was told use notes from x major scale so it probably doesn't meet your definition of playing purely by ear.

Let's say 5 hours 🙂

Jx

So you've been playing for 5 years, let's be conservative and say you practice just 3 hours a week, that's 775 hours learning to play from written music, and 5 hours trying to play by ear.

I've been playing sax for roughly the same time as you, but virtually all my playing has been by ear, it's only in the last few weeks that I've made any real effort to learn the names of the notes I'm playing, and I haven't succeeded yet.

I'm sure you can see the point.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I'm sure you can see the point.

Nope. I suspect you'll have to explain it.
You've been practising playing by ear so you do it well. Jeanette's been practising with written music so she can do that well. That's not very surprising. Are you saying that one is somehow better than the other?

 

[Jeanette]

I'm sure you can see the point

Only that, what you practice you become better at, how does it relate to whether or not you need theory?

Jx

 

[Dibbs]

...
If you can catch a ball that's thrown to you then you have just shown that you understand a number of very, very complex rules of physics, including the laws of velocity, resistance, gravity and trajectory. You may not be able to explain how they work, but by catching the ball you have proven that you understand them otherwise you wouldn't have been able to predict where the ball would be in order for you to catch it.
...

If you can catch a ball can you must therefore know enough to put a satellite into orbit and busking God Save the Queen proves that you can blow over Giant Steps changes.

 

[Bernie]

Only that, what you practice you become better at, how does it relate to whether or not you need theory?

Jx

No, you're missing the point, Nick too, he's too busy looking for a fight.

You said you envy me my ability to play by ear, but you have spent virtually none of your learning time trying to play by ear.

0.6%

 

[Jeanette]

No, you're missing the point, Nick too, he's too busy looking for a fight

Knowing Nick, little as I do, I doubt that very much, he is putting his side of the argument as are you 🙂

I am now addressing the playing by ear but still not sure where being able to copy a tune without understanding some theory will get me?

Jx

 

[Veggie Dave]

So that means understanding the theory is not necessary to catch the ball. It doesn't mean the dog understands the theory, which is what you are claiming.

No, it means you understand the theory whether you realise it or not. You cannot catch a ball without making incredibly complex mathematical decisions. Nor can a dog, or a bird prey on the hunt, or any other animal. This is not something I just made up to make a point, it's a scientific fact. Actually, I think it's an amazing scientific fact, which is why I remembered it. 😉

The idea that someone doesn't know something simply because they don't know what it's called doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Even your own argument verifies this. Unless you spent 775 hours practising and learnt absolutely nothing, which I think we both know isn't true.

This thread does seem to have drifted away from the main thing about music, though. It's supposed to be fun, no matter how you approach it.

I believe that just as someone who only plays by ear can have a great knowledge of theory, someone can be a good sight reader and have no knowledge of music theory (apart from recognising the pitch and length of a mark on a page).

That would be my dad. He plays the organ, and plays rather well, but while he can read he doesn't have the slightest concept of theory beyond names and lengths on a page. Absolutely no idea about anything. He can copy what's written but couldn't improvise or produce anything original. I was actually quite surprised when I discovered this, to be honest.

 

[Dibbs]

Yes! And that's true of all music theory, it doesn't add anything to what we know from the sound. It's a description of what we already know.

Some is, by no means all. The best theory is generative. It allows you to use logical reasoning to generate novel ideas. That's far more interesting and creative than just churning out stuff that you've heard before.

 

[Nick Wyver]

No, you're missing the point, Nick too, he's too busy looking for a fight.

I'm still not looking for a fight and I'm still missing the point.
Could you try explaining it. Saying I'm missing the point doesn't help a lot.

 

[Dibbs]

...This thread does seem to have drifted away from the main thing about music, though. It's supposed to be fun, no matter how you approach it....

Is it?

 

[trimmy]

This has been a great read but (always a but) it's a pointless question, it should have read 'Do i really need theory ?'
In Bernies case (or any other ear player) no he doesn't as he's happy to play by ear and learn tunes he wants to learn.
In Jeanette's case (or any reader) yes as she wants to play in orchestra and ensemble so theory is a must.

Case closed !

 

[trimmy]

Is it?

Most definitely

 

[Veggie Dave]

Is it?

You appear to be asking this for a specific reason. Before I answer this, care to explain why you asked?

 

[Dibbs]

You appear to be asking this for a specific reason. Before I answer this, care to explain why you asked?

I'm not sure. It seems a little trivial for the main point of music to be fun. You've made me think about it though.

The best I've come up with so far is that the main point of music is to express emotion or, slightly more cynically, to induce an emotional response in the listener.

 

[Jeanette]

I'm not sure. It seems a little trivial for the main point of music to be fun. You've made me think about it though.

The best I've come up with so far is that the main point of music is to express emotion or, slightly more cynically, to induce an emotional response in the listener.

Interesting, for me taking up music it was all about having fun, whilst there are plenty of other reasons especially if you are making music as a living I suppose.

Jx

 

[Veggie Dave]

I'm not sure. It seems a little trivial for the main point of music to be fun. You've made me think about it though.

The best I've come up with so far is that the main point of music is to express emotion or, slightly more cynically, to induce an emotional response in the listener.

Many apologies, I'm a little 'sensitive' today and seeing hidden agendas in innocent comments.

And you're absolutely right, nor do I think you're being remotely cynical. One of the greatest things about music, for me at least, is when the listener 'gets it', joins in with it, becomes part of what you're doing. I think it's one of the best things about listening to it, too.

To be honest, I think it's one of the most enjoyable things about playing music. 😉

 

[Jez Watson]

Can I ask you the same question I asked Jeanette Jez: what proportion of your learning and practice time up to now has been devoted to learning to play by ear, and what proportion has been spent learning to play from written music?

For the first 10 years i learnt soley by ear, mostly blues/rock on guitar and bass, i found that i had greater empathy for the bass and studied Jack Bruce and to some degree Jaco Pastorious, i was constantly critisised for playing too many notes and some at the wrong end of the neck!!
This took me in a direction and thirst for knowledge to study more complex music and is why i went on to listen to jazz and contemporary classical music etc, eventually going to Leeds college of music as a "mature adult"
I still prefer playing and learning by ear though i read but i have aquired a lot of skills from studying theory and applying it.

 

[ProfJames]

Interesting, for me taking up music it was all about having fun, whilst there are plenty of other reasons especially if you are making music as a living I suppose.

Jx

Full stop! Period! Agree....well said Jeanette.............things can be over complicated............