Saxophones Do different brands have their own tone? What makes a pro sax better?

[simonspill]

Bob Green wrote:

I wonder if there's a sax equivalent of Greg Lake out of ELP, who was rumoured to change his strings (or more likely have someone do it for him) before every take in the studio.

When I was starting out I did once go and hear a very well known British jazz tenorist who changed his mouthpiece and reeds after virtually every number. He even brought along another tenor and kept swapping about. It was like watching musical hypochondria in action! The thing was, he sounded fine on all of them.

Similarly (without wanting to appear to be name-dropping, as we're good mates) I was practising with Alan Skidmore once and he was trying a new box of reeds, all of which sounded, to my ears, fantastic. However he did what we all do and discarded some. So it happens to everyone!

I'm of the opinion that ultimately the reed inconsistency is all part and parcel of the art of playing the saxophone. You have to live with it and make the best of some pretty useless bits of cane from time to time. However, I'd say in general reeds are worse than they were when I began playing in the early 1990s.

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Currently listening to Wayne Shorter playing Black Diamond

 

[pauloalto]

Bob - I'd agree - my box of Vandoren ZZs have been very inconsistent. Annoyingly one from the box I really get on extremely well with and am worried I won't find a good replacement! Hopefully have more luck with the Ricos you suggested though!

 

[Dylan]

Guys


I try not to fuss too much about reeds. Life is too short - and I suspect the listener cannot detect when you are playing what you think is a duff reed from a "I hope this one never wears out" one. However, I play sax for the sheer pleasure of it and to have to fight against poor reeds all the time is frankly depressing.

Enough of a rant - lets cheer ourselves up with one of these :laugh:

 

[Bobby G]

Like I say, I can play round most minor inconsistencies, which may sound very similar to the listener, but there's always the odd clunker that won't be persuaded to play - not so much producing a bad sound (although that's part of it) as just being really hard work to blow.

Cheers, Mr. Bob Floppy-Embouchure

 

[simonspill]

I tried a NY metal Link (9*) yesterday. Although I had no problems dealing with the wide tip I found the "dark" sound (the selling point of these particular links, and allegedly something which harks back to the old fifties and sixties mouthpieces) to be rather frustrating and very "stuffy".

Interestingly enough I found exactly the same thing with the 7* NY Link I once (foolishly) purchased. The (for want of a better word) "flatter" tone this produced was great in the upper register but the bottom of the horn became too murky and dry sounding.

I guess that would be the only real criticism I would have of my ordinary Link 9: that it is a little too bright up the top of the tenor. Other than that, I've been playing it since 2001 so I've more or less learned to live with it by now.

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Currently listening to Coltrane playing On Green Dolphin Street

 

[mfox]

reeds are very important. when you get a sweet one look after it..

Simon looks like you go a similar disc collection to mine.over 2000 jazz discs and 1 top of the pops 1982 for the wife..
i know all the tunes your listening to and played them many times live over the years..currently im listening to a Hank Mobley tune called " funk in deep freeze" do you know it? there is a great chase sanbourn version of it too.

 

[Bobby G]

I like Hank Mobley a lot, and have several of his albums. I think he's one of those good players, like George Coleman who, while not actually ignored, are not as well-recognised as maybe they should be. What they sometimes refer to as a "player's player".

Cheers, Bob

 

[simonspill]

Hank Mobley will always be among my very favourite tenor saxophonists. He combined a unique tone, lyricism, rhythmic audacity (whilst sounding so nonchalant) and harmonic sophistication. Everyone talks about Soul Station - arguably his finest album - but he recorded plenty of other "classic" sessions, both under his own leadership and as a sideman to other leaders. Try "The Stylings Of Silver" (Horace Silver, Blue Note, 1957) for some great early Mobley. "Another Workout" (Blue Note, 1961) is from his purple patch in the early 60s, as is "No Room For Squares" (Blue Note, 1963).
Later sessions, such as "Dippin" (Blue Note, 1965) and "Third Season" (Blue Note, 1967) are more under the sway of post-Coltrane modality, but are great nonetheless. Among my favourite Mobley sessions is "The Flip", recorded in Paris in 1969, which contains two of Hank's best compositions, "Snappin' Out" and "Feelin' Folksy".

Hank had a pretty tragic life and died at the age of only 55 in 1986. I wrote two articles on him for Jazz Journal a couple of years ago and which may be of interest to Mobley-ites. He certainly left a lot of great music behind him, and is belatedly recognised as one of the most individual (and influential) tenorists of his generation.
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Currently listening to Joe Henderson playing In'n Out

 

[Linky Lee]

I really need to get a bigger jazz saxophone collection. I've got loads of jazz music but most doesn't feature saxophone that heavily. And the stuff that does is mainly ballads and I like variety.

Hank Mobley has a lovely tone, and he applies it across different styles as well. I'm really impressed. I'm going to buy one of his albums soon.

 

[Bobby G]

I started with Mobley's 'Soul Station' and 'No Room For Squares', fine collections both, and have added another couple from that period.

If you want to get into jazz, piece of advice I read years ago ran something like this; get hold of half-a-dozen or so albums by players you have heard of or had recommended to you by someone who knows your musical tastes. Discard the albums you don't like. Buy more albums by players who you like, or buy albums by sidemen on albums you like.

Remember, bands or combos very often came together for only one or two recording dates (depending on who was in town at the time), or lasted only a couple of years, and even bands that stayed together for decades under a leader like Duke Ellington or Art Blakey had a constantly shifting membership. Hence by picking on a player you like you can follow him/her through many different bands and albums, and so discover many other players you will like.

Jazz is a very large and extremely varied genre of music, with many sub- and sub-sub-genres and styles within it, which can make it a daunting thing to approach, so maybe it is best just to dive in somewhere and see where it leads you.

Two things to remember; don't be swayed by the Jazz Snobs 😉 and most of all have fun!

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

Yeah, I'm at the stage where I have about 50 albums or so and not really sure what I should be getting next, where to go etc.

As I've 'got a bit of everything'

Maybe I'll just go through and listen to a load and buy a few albums of saxophonists who stand out for me.

As I said before, most of the albums I have aren't really saxophone albums though.
Any decent albums you know of featuring saxophonists with a really 'hot' and 'warm' sound?

 

[simonspill]

Linky_Lee wrote:
Yeah, I'm at the stage where I have about 50 albums or so and not really sure what I should be getting next, where to go etc.

Any decent albums you know of featuring saxophonists with a really 'hot' and 'warm' sound?

Well, it's hard to know exactly where to start with jazz saxophone, especially where a "major" player has created not one but several albums which are seen as essential. However, I've just picked eight albums which I think are not only very good examples of the tenor sax players that recorded them, but which it has to said, are "inviting" examples of their respective styles (if you're looking for flame throwing late Coltrane, sorry, you won't find it here). There is nothing daunting or intimidating on these records, and the individuals concerned form the core of the tradition of the tenor saxophone in jazz - from where you can leap off into other more select areas.

These are just a few personal recomendations. For example, there are probably over a dozen or so John Coltrane albums I could have listed besides that I've chosen. However, the example given will provide a good overview of the initial style that Trane created. (Another, the Coltrane Ballads album, has been a revelation to some students of mine, who hitherto had only heard of him playing very challenging and intense jazz)

Part of the fun of discovering jazz can be taking the chance on the unknown player. The mere look of some album cover artwork in my Dad's old copy of the Illustrated Encylopedia of Jazz had me hunting down players I'm sure I'd have never explored without that extra stimulus.

Anyway, here's my list (for today at least!):

Lester Young - The President Plays with the Oscar Peterson Trio (Verve)

Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster (Verve)

Dexter Gordon - Go (Blue Note)

Stan Getz - The Steamer (Verve)

Sonny Rollins - Newk's Time (Blue Note)

John Coltrane - Soultrane (Prestige)

Zoot Sims - Down Home (Bethlehem)

Hank Mobley - Soul Station (Blue Note)

 

[Bobby G]

There's another good Webster album, with Gerry Mulligan, which is very warm.

If it's alto players you want, Cannonball Adderley is hard to beat. I love the "Somethin' Else" album as well two or three live albums I own. I haven't got round to his later stuff yet, though, most of what I have comes from the mid-50's to early 60's.

Also (yeah, I know I go on about him!) anything with Johnny Hodges is good for a slightly less complex, bluesy jazz sound. Oh, that sound.

For something a little more off-the-wall at times, any of Charles Mingus albums from the mid-50's to early 60's is good if you want something 'hot'. Described as 'eruptive' it can be quite 'in-yer-face' at times, with several things happening at once and a lot of blazing horns, but sometimes startlingly beautiful and haunting. Very often the blues or church music is at the root of the Mingus sound, it can be quite declamatory (Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting springs to mind). My recommendations would be 'Oh Yeah', 'Pithecanthus Erectus', 'Ah Um', 'Dynasty', 'The Clown', etc.

Other Coletrane albums you might enjoy include the really-quite-accessible 'Blue Trane', the somewhat more mode-y 'Coltrane' (one of my favourite Trane tunes, "Tunji" is on this album), or 'Lush Life' or 'Ole'. To name just a few, these are earlier ones, some of the later ones are quite out there, but 'A Love Supreme' is a beauty.

I'm surprised Simon didn't recommend any Tubby Hayes - the ones I really like are the live pair 'Down in the Village' and 'Late Spot at Scott's' from about 1962.

So much music, so little time 🙁 thank goodness I work from my car 🙂

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

Wow extensive recommendations!

I'll be looking on to some of those. Though probably all off the net, as the local music shops are awful for jazz. only a few shelves in a whole store.

Cheers for the recommendations.

 

[Bobby G]

If you're ever in Milton Keynes, the V*rg*n Megastore has an extensive jazz section.

Cheers, Bob

Actually, I think this deserves a thread of it's own------->>

 

[simonspill]

Bob Green wrote:

I'm surprised Simon didn't recommend any Tubby Hayes - the ones I really like are the live pair 'Down in the Village' and 'Late Spot at Scott's' from about 1962

Hey, there's more to me than Tubby Hayes! 😉

Actually, if I were recommending any "starter" albums by Tubby they'd be:

The Eighth Wonder (Jasmine)

The Couriers Of Jazz (Fresh Sounds)

Late Spot At Scott's (Univeral)

Mexican Green (Universal)
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Currently listening to Ronnie Scott playing Recorda Me

 

[Bobby G]

SimonSpill wrote:

Bob Green wrote:

I'm surprised Simon didn't recommend any Tubby Hayes - the ones I really like are the live pair 'Down in the Village' and 'Late Spot at Scott's' from about 1962

Hey, there's more to me than Tubby Hayes! 😉

If I doubted it before, the breadth of erudition of your posting here has cleared up any doubts.


Also, let's not forget the trumpet-players, many of whom played around some damn fine sax-players. Obviously Miles Davis who worked with Trane and Cannoinball, later Wayne Shorter (I say worked with, I think the correct term is probably 'hired'). Then you have people like Clifford Brown and a particular favourite of mine, Freddie Hubbard, who seemed able to go quite easily from soul-jazz stylings to free stopping at all points in between.

For 'jazz' to put a big fat smile on your face, try Lester Bowie's 16-minute version of 'The Great Pretender'. Some serious and hilarious playing on this one.

Cheers, Bob

 

[simonspill]

You could undertake a very valuable study of the lineage of the saxophone chair in Miles Davis bands, Horace Silver's quintet or Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers. Those three bands featured most of the big hitters of the day, from Rollins to Joe Henderson.

I am especially fond of the tenor saxophonists featured with Silver;
Hank Mobley, Clifford Jordan, Junior Cook and Joe Henderson. Each of these players has been very influential on me at some time or another.

Now I've been thinking about it, there are a couple more tenor saxophone albums I'd recommend to anyone wanting to check out the "core" of jazz tenor playing:

Stanley Turrentine - The Spoiler (Blue Note)

From 1966, this session has Turrentine with a large-ish band directed and arranged by Duke Pearson. Everything from poignant ballads to Latin-Jazz cookers and some great Soul-Jazz, all delivered by Mr. T's signature lush tenor tone. He's long been a favourite of mine.

Wayne Shorter - Adams Apple (Blue Note)

I love this CD. Perhaps the best example of Wayne Shorter's all round capapbilities as they stood in the mid-sixties (1966). All but one of the pieces is a Shorter composition, and they range from the boogaloo title track to tender ballads, a bossa and some typically obtuse Shorter-style writing on "Chief Crazy Horse". His sound on this too is amazing. Nowhere near as full or rich as say Rollins or Mobley, but it has its own melancholy appeal and remains inimitable.

It's funny, writing here has reminded me of the players who I got "heavily" into during my early years as a player. Looking back it makes an unusual chronology, but studying each of them really helped me and broadened my musical scope no end:

Courtney Pine (the reason I took up the tenor!)

Sonny Rollins

John Coltrane

Wayne Shorter

Stan Getz

Lester Young

Zoot Sims

Hank Mobley

Joe Henderson

Ben Webster

Branford Marsalis

Dexter Gordon

Joe Lovano

Joshua Redman

Johnny Griffin

Don Byas

Ronnie Scott

Tubby Hayes (still my biggest influence, although I'd say Coltrane remains my favourite saxophonist of the lot)

I wouldn't be without any of the great music these players have made. It has enriched my life in an amazing way.

Finally, Lester Bowie's take on "The Great Pretender" is mandatory listening - a wonderful track!
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Currently listening to Stan Getz and Bob Brookmeyer playing Who Cares

 

[Dylan]

Hi Simon
I've been enjoying reading your posts. very informative 😛

I started listening to Tubby Hayes a couple of years ago - the current fave is the "Couriers of Jazz". That leads me on to my question about Ronnie Scott. What a fantastic player 8) I would like to get some more of his work - however, I cant seem to find any albums with him as the sole horn. Do you know if he did any?

Thanks

 

[Dylan]

Just come across this on You Tube. Ronnie Scott and Victor Feldman 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ElBjf-AIA&NR