Saxophones Do different brands have their own tone? What makes a pro sax better?

Have you any thoughts about which new horns will still be good in 50 years? How about mfox's Yam 82x Custom? Someone contemplating buying their 'last' horn, or something that might hold it's value, could find the information useful.

My Yamaha 62 alto must be around 20 years old and looks, well, not new but pretty good and plays fine, the action and pads, springs etc are all good. Having said that, I've only had it a few months and don't know how much use it had before then.

Cheers, Bob
 
New horns which will still be good in 50 years?
I get the impression the yanagisawas and the yamahas are very solidly built. There are so many selmers around that simply by the laws of statistics, there should be a healthy number left. The keilwerths are well built but there are less of them sold than yamahas and selmers.

My theory is as follows:

1. The ones that will last are the ones which have been played well and maintained properly.
2. Professionals are more likely to maintain their horns properly than the average amateur player, simply because they have to.
3. Consequently, the ones which will still be in good working order will be the ones most pros play.
4. At the moment, I suspect that Selmers will be in the lead. The number of Mk6s around will decline simply because they will get knackered. There will be many who have switched over to the reference horns as a replacement. However I am not sure there will be another horn as legendary as the Mk6 because there doesn't appear to be any shortage of even the most "limited edition" saxophones (apart from the keilwerth shadows).

My 2c
 
On the other hand, sax technology could advance to the point where more 'modern classics' that last for decades appear on the market.

We already have the reworked Selmer Reference models, what chance of a modern 'Reference' Conn Lady Face, 'Reference' Super 20, or 'Reference' Top Hat & Cane at some point soon?

This reworking of old designs has already happened in the world of electric guitars, especially from the 50's. I suspect this was partly an economic thing, as the gradually-reducing pool of available legendary and desirable guitars forced prices up to ridiculous levels. Probably the Selmer Reference horns were introduced for similar reasons, so maybe we can look forward to 'reissues' of other vintage classics.

Cheers Bob
 
Now that is an interesting point. As I see it, the question is, are any of these companies in a position to ramp up production, marketing and endorsement to bring Conn back up to the Professional level with reference horns?

Strategically, it makes a lot of sense, but you'd better be prepared to face off with Selmer who has the most to lose from a direct competitor in the nostalgia stakes.

And then you have to look at the market i.e. saxophone buyers - are there enough non-selmerites to make it a profitable venture?

I would love to see some reissues. It always sparks the discussions about whether the special engraving pattern and mouthpiece pouch makes the tone sound more "vintage"
😛
 
Bob Green wrote:


Also, Simon's not the first to say he always ends up sounding like himself on different setups, so the chances of sounding like someone you admire would be remote, even if you wanted to.


I have to disagree there slightly. Although physiology, general talent and aptitude have a great deal to do with it, I think you can "zone in " on a general area of sax playing, or a general tonal and harmonic approach and work towards, and within, that.
Take Jim Tomlinson. He's worked very closely on the Stan Getz thing. Paul Quinichette got so close to Lester Young it was eerie sometimes.

Of course, you have to work towards being you at all times. To me the most heartening examples are those players who've started by closely aligning themselves with a chosen role model and then grown into distinct individuals themselves. On the UK scene you could name Tony Coe, who began his career under the spell of Paul Gonsalves, and Alan Skidmore, who has found his personilty through John Coltrane's music. I'd also add that both these players used many different mouthpieces through the years.

To add further to my point above, I now believe that, whilst remaining open to ALL great saxophonists (I adore everyone from Bud Freeman to Evan Parker) your development will be more effective if you concentrate on the specific area of jazz saxophone you wish to get inside.
It took me years to do that and I spent (wasted?) a lot of valuable time trying to go in this direction or that, getting in knots and being confused. Only after playing for about ten years did I really find what I wanted to do. I hasten to add that through all of that I played various mouthpieces.

As I wrote before I think players inhabit a general tonal area and that a mouthpiece/reed may or may make that easier but it certainly doesn't really alter the sound you have inside your head.
As Zoot Sims used to say in his beautifully unpretentious way "Why would you sound like something you didn't want to sound like?"

I also think that "saturation listening" (for want of a better phrase) will mean that things, primarily tone, will sink into your subconcious. If the sound you hear a lot from your favourite player on record is in your inner ear, it will be no surprise if you then go in that general direction.

This is where your sound, your signature let's face it, gets beyond the mere aspects of mouthpiece, reed and ligature and become about what you hear in your minds ear. Personally I have an "ideal" sound I want to hear from myself. Sometimes it is helped by the reed or lig, but even with a "bad" reed on, the core aspects of that tone remain. I've always equated having a bad reed as like losing your voice - it's certainly as frustrating.
That "ideal sound" is also most certainly based upon a role model in my case (guess who?!) but I've listened to that way of playing for so long now it's become second nature. I guess it's all a question of focus and of being able to say "I love player X but I don't want that sound, despite how great it is. I'd like to play with a player Y kind of sound".

The best example of would be Stan Getz. He played a bewildering array of mouthpieces in his career, and although his sound did alter as he matured, he was always recognisably him. I'm not sure if the story is apocryphal but he was supposed to have been at a music trade fair on the continent somewhere when he was asked to try the then latest Jupiter student tenor with its own mouthpiece and the reed which was on it. Getz blew it and sounded no different to how he might have sounded on his regular Selmer.
 
Good stuff there, Simon. I'm digesting it now....

I too have the 'problem' of loving many different styles of music and playing, and many different players. I've been listening to jazz on and off since I was quite young, but more and more over the last 3 years or so, and initially loved Cannonball's style (I am playing alto), punchy, speedy and very inventive, then homed in on Hank Crawford's more bluesy playing and lighter tone with Jimmy McGriff, but recently my man has become Johnny Hodges, whose sound and playing style were something I 'recognised' as soon as I heard it - maybe not the fastest, nor the most harmonically adventurous in light of bebop's developments, but just something about the sound, the feel, the blues of it was something I felt in me beyond intellectual rationalisation. Sure, you could study him, emulate him even, but it's that 'thing' of his that I think 'my' sound could emanate from, or be informed by without necessarily 'sounding like'. Not even necessarily in a similar musical style - two styles that spring to mind that I could see myself being involved in are the blues (Chicago wailing style or more laid-back & soulful like Billie), or that Mingus 'Blues & Roots' eruptive, declamatory style. This is part of my problem - having a love of, and desire to play in, different musical genres.

I've mentioned somewhere else about the 'blues-harp' tone I hear in my inner ear, that I can get on the alto, and I've now put a name to that tone that seems to have been in me from before I started playing. It's a tone I can get, with some variations but always essentially similar, on my 3 main alto mouthpieces (Meyer, Selmer and Brilhart).

Would getting hold of an old Buescher help or change the sound which I am coming to realise is at least partly innate? I don't know, but having a vintage 400 could have a psychological effect on how I perceive my playing.

Please excuse the inarticulate ramblings of an exhausted mind. Maybe I should just shut up and blow the s*dding horn....

Cheers, Bob
 
Although I think it's important to "zone in" on exactly the kind of saxophone playing you'd like to perform, I do also think that there is a danger that players who are fairly new to the saxophone sometimes make the mistake of allowing their own limitations technique and tone-wise to direct the direction they go in.

For example, I recently did a masterclass at a college and found a player who maintained that he went in the "breathy" Ben Webster direction because that is the sound he naturally gets on the horn. When we sat down and talked about his set up and reeds, it became apparent to me that he was getting that very airy sound because his mouthpiece tip was way too wide for the very hard reeds he was playing! He'd never tried a soft reed, largely due to that stupid falacy about getting on to the hardest reed possible to get a professional sound, so I had him try a 2 Soft Rico Jazz Select (which I use) on his mouthpiece. He couldn't believe the difference! The lower register, hitherto a slithery and half-toned and almost "ghosted" range for him was suddenly full of fat sounding "proper" notes.

I've had similar experiences with other students that I've taught including a guy who went from an impossibly hard reed on the worst Berg metal mouthpiece I've ever seen to an ebonite Berg and a softer reed which transformed his sound into a gorgeous tone, full of "real" notes and not airy pitches. He refused to swap over though because of the marked difference in pressure required for a softer reed.

When I was eighteen I was playing on Rico Royal 4 reeds. I had the loudest sound but ended up wheezing after playing, and the bottom register was nowhere to be heard! Gradually I worked backwards to a number 2 reed. I remember the stupid false sense of "defeat" as I got lower and lower in grades. However, I was sick and tired of playing unresponsive 2 1/2 reeds which were like dry planks of wood, so I tried a 2.

It was difficult to get used to at first (after all I started playing on 2 1/2 reeds when I was in my teens. I'd never played anything as soft as a 2) although I liked the "mellow" quality to the sound I got on the new softer reeds. The main difficulty was articulation. Previoulsy, I'd used a tighter embouchere and played with more direct attack. With the 2 I had to learn to hold off a bit and initially articulate in a far less aggressive manner. My mouth assumed a far more "o" shaped embouchere, and I dropped the jaw more too and my sound as a result grew darker and warmer and more in keeping with the direction I wanted to go in. Throught this I learned that it really doesn't matter what reed Brecker/Rollins/Joe Lovano/Joshua Redman uses. It's what suits you that matters most.

Originally my tone was far thinner, which I think it could easily revert back to if I didn't practice, so I really had to "work" on my tone. You can get a big sound with a soft reed. The only drawback would be their far quicker rate of expenditure, but, as with many things in sax playing, it's a trade-off or compromise which is easily forgotten when the sound is "right".

Finally, before I recieve irrate hate mail, regarding the above story, I'm not knocking Ben Webster! I love him. He's one of my favourites. The point I was making is that my student identified the breathy quality of his own playing to that of Ben, rather than to any technical reasons of his own. Ben played a very wide tip mouthpiece and very hard reeds, by choice, and his sound was by no means the product of just not being able to put enough air into the horn. He worked hard on it all his life, and most importantly, he could control the mouthpiece/reed set up. In my experience a lot of new players get that "breathy" sound due to the wrong reeds or inappropriate mouthpieces.
Also in my experience there are very few players who use a hard reed and big tip opening (the "macho" thing). One truly valuable rule that I've found works is wide tip = soft reed/ close tip = harder reed.
 
One truly valuable rule that I've found works is wide tip = soft reed/ close tip = harder reed.

I've been playing about a year now, and am using a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece with a Vandoren ZZ 2.5 reed. I worked my way up from a 1.5 Rico which I was advised to start with.

What I am finding is that most of the reeds in the ZZ 2.5 box feel too hard, but if I try going back down to a 2 it feels too soft. Just a couple of the reeds feel just right! I've tried Vandoren standard and JAVA 2.5s too and have had a similar experience with them, but prefer the ZZs.. can't quite put my finger on why though.

I can get the bottom B and Bb notes out and sounding reasonable most of the time but just it's definitely not as easy as the rest, and top E, F and F# can be tricky especially after I've been playing for an hour or so.

Is the 4C is quite a close tip, and if so should I be trying to work my way up to a harder reed or would you advise trying a different mouthpiece with a wider tip (and soft reed)?

I know it's a very individual issue but just wondering if you'd be able to offer some advice on what would be good to try as a way forward.
 
Perhaps try a selection of Rico Jazz Select reeds, they come in 2S(oft) 2M(edium) 2H(ard), etc. This means the strength differences are closer together so with a bit of experimentation you should be able to find one to suit you (sir!).

I find that generally the Rico JS are easier to control than the Vandoren ZZ, which to my mind are a bit harder. Maybe I just get on with the Rico profile better, as I can comfortably play on a 2H/3S whereas the ZZ 2.5 become a bit of hard work after a while.

For a slightly less edgy tone, Rico Royal 2.5 suit me. I have also tried La Voz and like them, again they are a bit mellower than the RJS.

FWIW, I agree with SimonSpill (and Pete for that matter) that there is absolutely no need to enter the macho 'I blow on a builders plank on a half-inch tip opening, me' contest. Most people seem to be ok on a medium strength, say 2.5 to 3 or so.

Finally, a disclaimer; I haven't been playing for very long, and haven't tried all reeds by any means, so don't take this as gospel 😉

Cheers, Bob
 
PauloAlto wrote:

Is the 4C is quite a close tip, and if so should I be trying to work my way up to a harder reed or would you advise trying a different mouthpiece with a wider tip (and soft reed)?

In my general experience most players, even relatively new saxophonists, can play with much wider tip openings than they suspect. It all depends on the reed used with a wider tip. (The first time I tried a Link 10* I couldn't believe I could get a sound out of it...but with the right reed it "spoke" beautifully. It'll be long notes or slow ballads that'll reallt show if you can control a wider tip a lower volume and intensity though).

The 4C, forgive me but I can't think of a better phrase, is a cheap and cheerful beginners mouthpiece ideal for getting you used to the concept of blowing the horn. I had one years ago and ruined it in an ill-fated DIY attempt to lengthen the lay! However with, say a Rico Royal 3 it should be fine. I'd imagine anything less would begin to get awkward (even in a box of RR 3's you'll get soft ones and harder ones).

I'd recommend moving up and down (more open tip and softer reed) but that's what works for me and might not suit you. There are lots of players who work with close tips and harder reeds. In fact, thinking about it, in the fifteen years I've been playing it I've only ever used the close old Selmer C* on my soprano with a Rico Royal 3 1/2 reed and it has worked out fine.

One reminder I'd add is that Vandoren reeds always come up harder than their counterparts. I can't play 'em as a result but that's just me being fussy! I'd certainly recommend trying the Rico Jazz Select series. Ok, so you have the added S M and H gradings to deal with but on the whole I've found them very consistent (if not as great as the old Rico Jazz which were the best reeds I ever played!)
 
I had a few issues with my mouthpieces a few years ago, namely that I was sure that a bigger tip means a better sound. So I moved from a otto link stm 5* to an ebonite link 8*. I got a louder sound out of it but it was so hard to control it almost made it not worth the bother. Lips were always exhausted.

Then on a whim, I got a cheap meyer 6 ebonite and all my problems were solved. It was flexible enough that I could reach the top and the bottom of the horn without too much stress and with a sweet sound.

I could reach the top and bottom of the instrument reasonably comfortably. Then the search began for the optimal reed for that mouthpiece. Then the long tones started.

Don't bother with the "bigger tip opening/harder reed = better" thing. Get a decent mouthpiece and then try a selection of reeds. As a rule of thumb, the bigger the tip, the further the reed has to travel therefore a softer reed should work better and vice-versa.

Everyone has different preferences. I always found Ricos a little spongy, so I tried Vandorens. Take a bit of getting used to and they are definately harder then their counterparts. i.e. vandoren 2 = 2.5 others. Alexander Superials have a nice sound to them and are worth a try although they only come in boxes of ten.

Um.....I am not sure that helped, but what I am trying to say is take a look at a site like www.myatt.co.uk, order a selection of different reeds and playtest the lot. Find one you like and order a box.

Then start the longtones.
 
Thanks for all your advice and suggestions, much appreciated. I'm only just beginning to get to grips with the subtleties of mouthpieces.

I don't think it helps that I've only played on the one I have. Do music shops let you try them out? I live near Manchester and there is a shop there called Johnny Roadhouse which I know sells mouthpieces does anyone know if they would let me try some, or anywhere else in the North West/East Midlands area?

Just got a couple of questions to clarify... :blush:

Bob Green: Perhaps try a selection of Rico Jazz Select reeds...

I've not tried those, so will get some and give them a go, thanks 🙂 Do they tend to be quite consistent?

SimonSpill: The 4C, forgive me but I can't think of a better phrase, is a cheap and cheerful beginners mouthpiece ideal for getting you used to the concept of blowing the horn. I had one years ago and ruined it in an ill-fated DIY attempt to lengthen the lay! However with, say a Rico Royal 3 it should be fine. I'd imagine anything less would begin to get awkward (even in a box of RR 3's you'll get soft ones and harder ones).

Thanks for being blunt, I appreciate that. I want to "upgrade" my mouthpiece, and although a lot of you seem to think a wider tip opening with a softer reed seems to be the way forward, what I don't understand is what difference a wider or closer tip makes in terms of your sound? Also I don't understand what you mean by anything less than an RR 3 being awkward? Would it be difficult to play on?

tengu01: I had a few issues with my mouthpieces a few years ago, namely that I was sure that a bigger tip means a better sound. So I moved from a otto link stm 5* to an ebonite link 8*. I got a louder sound out of it but it was so hard to control it almost made it not worth the bother. Lips were always exhausted.

Thanks for the alternative view. I take it the meyer 6 is a closer tip? Do you mean hard to control the volume, or maintain a nice sound?
 
Most music shops will let you try mouthpieces, the one I use (Myatt's in Hitchin) let you play in one of their practice rooms for as long as you like, and after you've bought a mouthpiece you have it on approval for 7 days.

I find the Rico Jazz Selects pretty consistent, or at least I can play around minor inconsistencies, probably because I'm used to them.

Cheers, Bob
 
tengu01: I had a few issues with my mouthpieces a few years ago, namely that I was sure that a bigger tip means a better sound. So I moved from a otto link stm 5* to an ebonite link 8*. I got a louder sound out of it but it was so hard to control it almost made it not worth the bother. Lips were always exhausted.

Thanks for the alternative view. I take it the meyer 6 is a closer tip? Do you mean hard to control the volume, or maintain a nice sound?

The Meyer 6 was definately smaller than the link 8*. It was really hard to get a good note out of it. Had to blow really hard to get a sound out and it was really airy. The low notes were impossible to get out. The high notes were easier but it was still hard work. Very difficult to actually control the shape of the sound. The tone was reasonably nice in the middle of the horn but so hard to maintain, your lips are battered at the end of the playing session.
 
A larger tip opening means that you can blow more air through the instrument as there is a bigger gap. It also means larger possible reed vibrations which is what gives the fatter tone.

This is all good but it comes back at you because to play quietly you have to give a much higher air pressure whilst playing gently to keep the tone consistent and keep the volume down.

This is why larger tip openings are harder to control. You basically need more breath control and air pressure on the reed at all times. Which can be hard work and why many people go for a smaller tip opening and a harder reed to get that extra material vibrating giving them a bigger sound that way.

Hope that helped clear up the two options people seem to go for.
I sit somewhere in the middle. I use an Otto Link STM 6, which isn't small but isn't big either. And I use either 2.5 or 3 strength reeds which are in the middle as well.
 
PauloAlto wrote:

Thanks for being blunt, I appreciate that. I want to "upgrade" my mouthpiece, and although a lot of you seem to think a wider tip opening with a softer reed seems to be the way forward, what I don't understand is what difference a wider or closer tip makes in terms of your sound? Also I don't understand what you mean by anything less than an RR 3 being awkward? Would it be difficult to play on?

I was making the general point that a soft reed like a 2 would simply close up on close mouthpiece like your 4C.

Wider tip means the reed has further to travel and therefore using a harder reed on this kind of tip will mean having to develop chops like iron!
A softer reed will be easier to control on a bigger tip opening but it will also mean that certain articulation differences may be apparent initially.

In my experience developing a "big" sound on a Wide Tip/Soft Reed set up is totally different to developing it on a closer lay mouthpiece. Full projection at volume will be harder but it can be achieved by working on the embouchere. I tend to play with a loose "o" shape embouchere and let the reed "speak" as freely as possible. That's why I can't stand harder reeds. I just don't want to spend a whole gig having to "make" a reed speak.

Nor (as I'm now moaning!) do I like working with reeds which, if they were any other product, the consumer could return to the seller and ask for his/her money back.
This is a pet hate (born long before I ever turned pro...but exacerbated by the financial circumstance of doing this for a living!). I also have to say that at the price you can now pay for sax reeds they really SHOULD work! If only!

😡
 
Thanks, you've all been really helpful! 🙂 🙂

I'm going to try to get to a music shop and test out a wider tip.

I found this handy chart:
http://www.jodyjazz.com/images/facing.charts/alto.mpc.facings.pdf

Looks like anything will be wider than mine! I get the feeling it would be better not to make too bigger jump too soon, and I've only been playing a year so don't want to spend loads on a mouthpiece which might just be a stepping stone....

Thanks again,

Paul 🙂
 
Why are reeds inconsistent, seemingly this affects some brands more than others?

I find the RJS and Royals to be consistent enough for a player like me who's self-taught and doesn't know any better 😉 so I can work round minor inconsistencies. I hear also that La Voz are very good. Others, according to various opinions, are not so good - I had a box of Vandoren jaZZ 2's, they all sounded ok but some were a much harder blow than others.

I have been tempted by 'artificial' reeds which should be very consistent, but it seems an expensive way of finding out whether you like the tone of a certain brand, so I haven't done it yet.

Like Linky Lee, I am 'somewhere in the middle', using 2.5 to 3S reeds, and a not-very-large tip opening; my Selmer Soloist, for instance, is a D. Also, I never doctor reeds.

It seems with things as they are you just have to put up with bad reeds now and again, you can't return them for a refund or exchange. Not ideal.

As a pro, presumably someone like Simon or Pete will lay out a lot more on reeds than most so I can understand the frustration as they are also likely to be more exacting about what they expect from their reeds.

I know from being around working guitar-players that they change strings a lot, sometimes before every gig, and when I was playing a lot of guitar I would avoid certain brands which I found didn't stand up to my Keef Richards/Joe Strummer rhythmic stylings on electric, or constant adjusting into different open tunings on acoustic.

I wonder if there's a sax equivalent of Greg Lake out of ELP, who was rumoured to change his strings (or more likely have someone do it for him) before every take in the studio.

Cheers, Bob
 

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