Saxophones Conn, Amati, Weltklang or Buescher

[felixmrdgez]

Hi everyone!

I’m looking to buy my first tenor saxophone and would really appreciate some advice from people who have experience with these vintage horns.

I’m trying to choose between a few instruments, ranging from 500 to 600 euros (plus shipping). They all are overhauled and revised by a sax restorer:

Conn Pan American model (year 1955) - 500 euros - s/n 155977

• Fitted with an adapted CEWinds neck instead of the original Conn neck (the original is unavailable)
• I am kinda skeptical that the original timbre would be lost with a different neck
• The seller said it has a brighter, clarinet-like tone (maybe its because of the neck? But in the videos he sent me, I also hear a dark, warm sound in it)
• Apparently its the most comfortable ergonomically of the bunch

Weltklang (year 1966) - 500 euros - s/n 17204

• Described by the seller as having a dark, focused and fat sound. Compared to a trombone-like tone
• Apparently its less comfortable ergonomically than the Conn, but I dont really care

Amati Super Classic model (60s/70s?) - 600 euros - s/n 50269

I’ve read these horns have a very big, full, rich sound. Bit better ergonomics than the Weltklang, probably.

Buescher "American Professional" stencil (1921) - s/n 85433 - 600 euros

• Described as having an excellent, dark, classic Buescher tone
• This is the one I am most interested in because of how vintage it is, and it might have the highest quality in general

My main focuses are free and spiritual jazz. A sound like Pharoah Sanders, Albert Ayler, Coltrane (late period), Archie Shepp, Charles Gayle, Billy Harper, David Murray…

So I am looking for a sound that is very deep and dark. Something with lots of character, tonally. I’m not expecting the saxophone itself to give me the sound of these players, of course. I understand that mouthpiece, reed, technique and the player are extremely important. However, I’d like to choose an instrument whose natural character is a good starting point. I will learn by ear and mostly record myself at home, my goal is to explore the instrument and have fun with it so I have zero anxiety about learning.

I don’t know which one to choose because they all seem great. My favourite pick is the Buescher for now. Unfortunately, I cannot try them in person, so I’m relying partly on the seller’s assessments for now, and some youtube vids I am finding.

Which of these would you choose, and why?

I’d appreciate replies from people who have actually played or owned these particular models, or at least know about the brands.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Grumps]

Do you play saxophone?

 

[turf3]

None of these can get me very interested.

A Pan Am with non original neck that may or may not properly match with the horn. May not have front F.

Weltklang and Amati - meh

Very old Buescher stencil with no front F - meh.

You're going to have to try them and see how you feel about them. See if you can arrange for a trial period and shipping back.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Do you play saxophone?

I have tried years ago with a P.Mauriat. But I sold it for private reasons. I was learning at home by myself but I have only played like one month. I am good at flute though.

 

[felixmrdgez]

None of these can get me very interested.

A Pan Am with non original neck that may or may not properly match with the horn. May not have front F.

Weltklang and Amati - meh

Very old Buescher stencil with no front F - meh.

You're going to have to try them and see how you feel about them. See if you can arrange for a trial period and shipping back.

I forgot to say, the Buescher has front F (he added it). The neck on the Conn works properly (according to the sax restorer).

 

[Grumps]

I have tried years ago with a P.Mauriat. But I sold it for private reasons. I was learning at home by myself but I have only played like one month. I am good at flute though.

Just caught that:

Saxophones - P.Mauriat PMXT-66R Vintage or Gold Lacquered?

I think the fact Mauriat stopped making this model probably says something ? Means nothing really. Bet most players wish that Selmer still make the Mark vi

cafesaxophone.com

So this would be your second tenor then. I'd say you need an instructor in person to help you choose a horn and teach you how to play it. But if you're really serious this time and still want to go it alone, your best bet would be to start with a used horn from an established maker like Yamaha that won't break the bank. That way should you give up again, you can unload the horn for value paid.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Just caught that:

Saxophones - P.Mauriat PMXT-66R Vintage or Gold Lacquered?

I think the fact Mauriat stopped making this model probably says something ? Means nothing really. Bet most players wish that Selmer still make the Mark vi

cafesaxophone.com

So this would be your second tenor then. I'd say you need an instructor in person to help you choose a horn and teach you how to play it. But if you're really serious this time and still want to go it alone, your best bet would be to start with a used horn from an established maker like Yamaha that won't break the bank. That way should you give up again, you can unload the horn for value paid.

Why wouldn’t you choose a vintage horn? I just love the sound of them

 

[Colin the Bear]

Condition is everything. A hundred years of poor storage and lack of maintenance will kill anything mechanical.

Weltklang is an old klunker. At this age it may well fall to bits. Mine did. Selective galvanic corrosion was diagnosed.

Pan American was probably OK in its day. It's a student "economy" model, with a lot of years under its belt. If it has been well maintained and dent free, it may suit your needs.

The Amati is a robust student horn. Is it a Corton? The only horn I could afford when I started. Good intonation and fair enough ergonomics.

They all seem to be overpriced. Check ebay for current sale prices.

Personally I would go for something at least from this century, but I'm not aware what is available in Spain. A used Yamaha 25, 275 perhaps.

Have a look at Thomann. You may be able to afford something new. With a guarantee and returns policy.

 

[Grumps]

Why wouldn’t you choose a vintage horn? I just love the sound of them

All my saxophones are vintage horns. I grew up playing them and prefer them to the multitude of modern saxophones I've owned and sampled. I would of course choose a vintage horn. But I'm not you. You have no idea what to look for in a saxophone and you want to be sure you're getting one that's in playing shape that won't hinder you. Just going for a vintage horn when you've got no handle on them is begging to be ripped off and sold something you'll have a hard time unloading.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Condition is everything. A hundred years of poor storage and lack of maintenance will kill anything mechanical.

Weltklang is an old klunker. At this age it may well fall to bits. Mine did. Selective galvanic corrosion was diagnosed.

Pan American was probably OK in its day. It's a student "economy" model, with a lot of years under its belt. If it has been well maintained and dent free, it may suit your needs.

The Amati is a robust student horn. Is it a Corton? The only horn I could afford when I started. Good intonation and fair enough ergonomics.

They all seem to be overpriced. Check ebay for current sale prices.

Personally I would go for something at least from this century, but I'm not aware what is available in Spain. A used Yamaha 25, 275 perhaps.

Have a look at Thomann. You may be able to afford something new. With a guarantee and returns policy.

Thanks for your opinion! what about the Buescher?

 

[Grumps]

Thanks for your opinion! what about the Buescher?

Let me interject here. You've been told that it's a Buescher stencil. Without seeing it, we can't confirm that. Sorting out vintage stencil horns is not for the uninitiated.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Why wouldn’t you choose a vintage horn? I just love the sound of them

You may be mixing up the sound of vintage players with vintage horns. Starting out you need a well regulated, leak free instrument. Not a nostalgic collectors item.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Let me interject here. You've been told that it's a Buescher stencil. Without seeing it, we can't confirm that. Sorting out vintage stencil horns are not for the uninitiated.

He has confirmed with me, he is a well known sax restorer in Spain so I trust him , has more than 100 vintage horns on sale and knows very well what he is doing.

I will add some pictures:

 

[LostCircuits]

The only one I can really comment on is the Buescher. Those are in general very good horns but, the stencils were often "lagging" behind the actual Buescher equivalents with respect to keywork/mechanics, for example I had a Lyon & Healy from 1925 that had the octave mechanism of a 1921 Buescher TT, functional but a bit clunky.

600 Euros, if the horn is in really good shape, that's justifiable, they are good horns with good intonation so you won't go down a rabbit hole with trying to compensate, at least with the right MPC they are.

The front F key, I don't know when they introduced it on tenors and especially on stencils (see above) it may be there or not, but it is not hugely important if you are just starting to learn because you really only need it for altissimo and that's probably some 5-8 years in the future. (I just saw your other post, so it is there but it is still inconsequential

Overall, I am not sold on either offer but if anything, the Buescher is the most appealing especially since you can slay a bunch of zombies without doing damage to the horn.

Second would be the Amati

 

[felixmrdgez]

You may be mixing up the sound of vintage players with vintage horns. Starting out you need a well regulated, leak free instrument. Not a nostalgic collectors item.

It’s well regulated. This guy is only selling regulated horns, and he is a great restorer in Spain, probably the only legitimate one, so that’s a good thing.

 

[Grumps]

The front F key,

Looks like one was added with a custom job. Definitely a Buescher stencil tenor.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Looks like one was added with a custom job. Definitely a Buescher stencil tenor.

Would you choose it over the other two?

 

[Grumps]

Would you choose it over the other two?

Gun to my head, I would. Still, I'd like to try it first. But who knows... maybe it plays like @LostCircuits ' Buescher tenor I got to try last month. Probably about the same age.

Okay... I'm in. Offer him 400.

 

[LostCircuits]

He has confirmed with me, he is a well known sax restorer in Spain so I trust him , has more than 100 vintage horns on sale and knows very well what he is doing.

I will add some pictures:

View attachment 38414
View attachment 38415

Definitely a Buescher and it has the newer octave mechanism. The only blemish I see is the red felts, otherwise it looks like a fine horn. It might be worth looking at the octave vent on the neck, most likely it is the standard version rather than the saltshaker.

Another thing about this particular horn is that it has the 1926 pinky table, which has the articulated G# mechanism, not super important but it makes it easier to play compared to the "pearl" version. In other words, you are looking at a highly "modernized" instrument, with all the features of the version IV, at least as far as I can tell from the two pictures. Definitely worth the consideration.

One thing about these horns is they want to be played and they will let you know through their response.

 

[LostCircuits]

Gun to my head, I would. Still, I'd like to try it first. But who knows... maybe it plays like @LostCircuits ' Buescher tenor I got to try last month. Probably about the same age.

Okay... I'm in. Offer him 400.

Mine is a 1924 but from the looks and the mods, that's the one I'd pick