Coltrane "murders" Summertime?

[Clivey]

I agree
I like for the impro to occasionally connect with the melody. I’m afraid I switch off and agree that imho it’s an ego trip and doesn’t create, for me, a pleasant listening experience.

Whatever emotional response music gives us ,I would say was the in domain of whoever is producing it and it is very often the manifestation of complex almost unexplainable internal motivational reasoning.

I would suggest much has been composed and recorded and performed that was never intended to be "enjoyed" as such but can still be successful in evoking strong feeling in the listener. If it fulfils the process then it's probably "job done".

 

[6441]

he was still perfecting the formula

I agree. (I started this.) I think the first thing to realize about Coltrane is that he was being himself. People, musicians or civilians, can like it, be indifferent or hate the sound of it, but in my opinion, Coltrane was just being himself. This is how he wanted to play it, not like the hundreds of other versions, but his own.

 

[Nick Wyver]

imho it’s an ego trip

What do you think a solo is?

 

[Yitwail]

Thought I’d mention for the benefit of anyone casually acquainted with Coltrane, that he had mastery of ballads. Many examples I could cite, but his own Naima, and Blue in Green are two notable ones. Then there’s this early recording with Monk. There was more to Coltrane’s playing than mere virtuosity.

View: https://youtu.be/A2gyzx90Fs4

 

[6441]

The above album was apparently recorded around 1958. "Summertime" was circa 1961. The Coltrane I "grew up" with was "Live at the Village Vanguard" (1962) and "Ballads" (1963). He was searching for another thing, and I like when he went further, but those two albums are subtle, intense, brilliant and original. "Crescent" (1964) starts to go further in that direction.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Summertime was written in 1934. If this was recorded in 1961 then I’m sure that more than enough time had gone by to clock up arguably too many almost identical renditions of the tune. Coltrane plays the tune in his own style, after all, why wouldn’t he?

Jazz renditions have often been about rehashing a tune in a completely different way - ballad to up-tempo, up-tempo to ballad - rather like a modern “re-mix” idea, let alone any reharmonisation or poetic license with the tune. This is the essence of jazz.

I love it. But if you ask if he murders My Favourite Things...

 

[6441]

My Favourite Things

(1960) His greatest hit... the version without a 'u'. "Most requested tune" says Ed Wheeler in The World According to John Coltrane, “and a bridge to a broad public audience.”

Interesting, and several good links in this.

How John Coltrane Introduced the World to His Radical Sound in the Groundbreaking Recording of “My Favorite Things”

Favorite Things”] is a definitive work that everyone knows, and anyone can listen to, and the fascinating story of its evolution is something everyone can share and enjoy.' The song is accessible, a commercially successful hit, and it is also an experimental masterpiece.

www.openculture.com

 

[Royston]

What do you think a solo is?

“Rock on Tommy”

 

[BigMartin]

I used to hate it too (or at least, I was mystified by it). Then I started listening to more of where it was coming from and the more i do that, the more sense it makes and the more beauty I find in it. This particulary recording is still a bit beyond me, I suspect, but I'll come back to it. What most people want from music is instant gratification. They're missing out on the good stuff, but what can you do?

Since this thread's been revived I thought I'd check in with it again. Sure enough it makes a lot more sense and sounds more beautiful and uplifting. Mr Coltrane and the others must have been practising over the last couple of years .

 

[6441]

For those of you in the US of A, the video mentioned in my post above, The World Accordoing to John Coltrane (Amazon link, prime video) is very interesting, although it ends up with his last stuff that anyone on thread won't want to hear The video shows the progression of Trane's playing from his earliest days. The first 10 minutes or so are on YouTube:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ufDRywnUE

 

[turf3]

So what's wrong with Trane's Summertime? I just listened to it for the first time in many many years. Still sounds great.

I fail to see why it's so weird to appreciate Sidney Bechet, John Coltrane, Arthur Blythe, David Murray, Johnny Hodges, Pharoah Sanders, Albert Ayler, Ben Webster, and so on, for who they are and how they played. Being able to appreciate Bechet does not inherently mean one rejects Trane and being able to appreciate Trane does not mean one rejects Bechet.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's odd how some days Trane is just right and other days I can't be doing with him. Hodges, Webster, Mulligan, Desmond are always just right.
Bechet...Bechet...we all fall down. Bless you.

 

[Hipparion]

Jazz renditions have often been about rehashing a tune in a completely different way - ballad to up-tempo, up-tempo to ballad - rather like a modern “re-mix” idea, let alone any reharmonisation or poetic license with the tune. This is the essence of jazz.

To my knowledge (ok I cheated, I went here to confirm what I thought I knew before posting this), Summertime was written as a Lullaby. The original intent was a lullaby. I would be quite puzzled to see someone tell me Coltrane's version is a lullaby ! And beware, I have a few friends who currently have babies, so I will put that to the test* !

I thought that intent was part of any music, so what about this particular case ? Coltrane applied his style to a music that could not be compatible (to my ears) with it. Isn't there at least a tinny tiny bit of a case for saying 'yes that was murdering Summertime' ?

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that such versions shouldn't be done, I am actually glad** Coltrane tried. It is good and necessary that people cross the lines and blur them until something good comes out of it. Sometimes great discoveries are made just like this, whether we like it or not (there is a lot of trash along the way, though).

In the end (and to me) his version is to the original tune what a Picasso painting can be to a classical one.
Not less talented, not less interesting nor even less beautiful. Just very different (especially in the intent).

But if you ask me, that was kind of murder, yes... cf **

*no children will ever be harmed due to this thread...
**I still hate it, but that's just my taste.

 

[6441]

Someone on this board, I don't recall who, thought Mindy's Imagine was a travesty, to transform this "iconic" song into a funk-jazz version.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUauHXpTyvo

Personally, I rather listen to her version than the original.

None of this matters, no one is actually hurt or killed, which is the inevitable result of murder.
Some like it, others don't. To say a song is "destroyed" as a human life would be if murdered, is an opinion, no more, no less. Those who are unhappy with the version of either song are free to record and exhibit their versions.

Meanwhile, enjoy Hey Jude as stride piano.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQgff_9GOqE

 

[Pete Effamy]

To my knowledge (ok I cheated, I went here to confirm what I thought I knew before posting this), Summertime was written as a Lullaby. The original intent was a lullaby. I would be quite puzzled to see someone tell me Coltrane's version is a lullaby ! And beware, I have a few friends who currently have babies, so I will put that to the test* !

I thought that intent was part of any music, so what about this particular case ? Coltrane applied his style to a music that could not be compatible (to my ears) with it. Isn't there at least a tinny tiny bit of a case for saying 'yes that was murdering Summertime' ?

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that such versions shouldn't be done, I am actually glad** Coltrane tried. It is good and necessary that people cross the lines and blur them until something good comes out of it. Sometimes great discoveries are made just like this, whether we like it or not (there is a lot of trash along the way, though).

In the end (and to me) his version is to the original tune what a Picasso painting can be to a classical one.
Not less talented, not less interesting nor even less beautiful. Just very different (especially in the intent).

But if you ask me, that was kind of murder, yes... cf **
View attachment 18063
*no children will ever be harmed due to this thread...
**I still hate it, but that's just my taste.

I don’t have a problem with it offending your personal taste - we all have that.
Gershwin owed a lot to jazz though he never wrote any. Rhapsody in Blue was scored originally for jazz band and I would say that Gershwin’s music was only enhanced by the many and often renditions by jazz musicians.

 

[6441]

Regardless of the use of the word murder, the piece has a few notable "lessons" in it. The first one that comes to mind is how well it illustrates tension and release. Instead of being all pastoral on the first minor part, it's very much tension with whole tone harmony, which resolves nicely into the second major seventh-y hush little baby ending. In effect, he reversed the usual and starts with tension. That makes a lot of sense in Trane's universe. There's a lesson on how holding emotional notes between fast, sometimes ugly tirades tells the story. There are a number of scale over harmony lessons in the tension (whole tone) parts, where he and McCoy, in solos, both play not just whole tone scales, but a lot of altered 7ths with +/-9 and +/-5. Instead of what would normally be a V chord over "high" in the lyric "cotton is high", he uses an Eb7 in (flat II in relation to the tonal center of Dm).

 

[Hipparion]

I don’t have a problem with it offending your personal taste - we all have that.
Gershwin owed a lot to jazz though he never wrote any. Rhapsody in Blue was scored originally for jazz band and I would say that Gershwin’s music was only enhanced by the many and often renditions by jazz musicians.

Well apparently I quite successfully failed to convey (at least to you) anything else than an opinion. OK.

Regardless of the use of the word murder, the piece has a few notable "lessons" in it. The first one that comes to mind is how well it illustrates tension and release. Instead of being all pastoral on the first minor part, it's very much tension with whole tone harmony, which resolves nicely into the second major seventh-y hush little baby ending. In effect, he reversed the usual and starts with tension. That makes a lot of sense in Trane's universe. There's a lesson on how holding emotional notes between fast, sometimes ugly tirades tells the story. There are a number of scale over harmony lessons in the tension (whole tone) parts, where he and McCoy, in solos, both play not just whole tone scales, but a lot of altered 7ths with +/-9 and +/-5. Instead of what would normally be a V chord over "high" in the lyric "cotton is high", he uses an Eb7 in (flat II in relation to the tonal center of Dm).

So part of what you're saying here is that the core of the original tune is still there, not destroyed at all, but Coltrane added a lot of things on top of that. So much so that experienced ears (such as those of a seasoned musician) can still enjoy the emotions of the original tune, with a bonus in-between. Eventually less experienced ears (such as mine) would have a hard time to find back the emotions that were quite plain in more conventional versions.

Fine, it is not 'murder' (I didn't understand that word was to be taken so literally) then.
Never was, never will be.

Question: would you choose that version as a lullaby to accompany a child to sleep ?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Well apparently I quite successfully failed to convey (at least to you) anything else than an opinion. OK.

So part of what you're saying here is that the core of the original tune is still there, not destroyed at all, but Coltrane added a lot of things on top of that. So much so that experienced ears (such as those of a seasoned musician) can still enjoy the emotions of the original tune, with a bonus in-between. Eventually less experienced ears (such as mine) would have a hard time to find back the emotions that were quite plain in more conventional versions.

Fine, it is not 'murder' (I didn't understand that word was to be taken so literally) then.
Never was, never will be.

Question: would you choose that version as a lullaby to accompany a child to sleep ?

But Coltrane wasn’t intending to convey a lullaby.

 

[Hipparion]

But Coltrane wasn’t intending to convey a lullaby.

So basically it is a failed murder, but the intent was there...

 

[6441]

Coltrane added a lot of things on top of that

He is actually hardly playing the song itself. In fact he could have put his name on it. What I said was that he reversed the effect of peace to tension and I think he often does that. It may even reflect his feeling about the progression of his life, finding peace after a rough period. I have no problem with someone repurposing a song. I don't think of it as adding anything to it, he modified it, just like someone like Ornette might play a song in the blues form but it doesn't sound at all like the blues we expect.

I know no one meant murder literally. Coltrane played many of songs that would make beautiful lullabies, Naima, After the Rain, the whole Ballads album excluding my favorite All or Nothing at All. I can't speak for his thoughts on the matter, but I can tell you that as someone who has written and continues to write songs, I don't care what anyone does with them. Our very own @Pete Effamy, my brother and I recorded one called Four You that I'll shamelessly place here for those who missed it.

View: https://youtu.be/n5K_fAHwLvc