Beginner Circle (or cycle) of 4ths and 5ths

[Jeanette]

My head hurts trying to follow all this

Jx

 

[aldevis]

You should see mine after trying to use a language in which numbers have no gender.
A sex-free language.

 

[trimmy]

My head hurts trying to follow all this

Jx

I stopped before my head exploded !!

 

[spike]

No wonder I failed music at 'O' level - Passes in Art and Art History - went to Art School - dropped out and became a musician. And the moral of the story is: Where's me buccaneers? On me buccin' 'ead.

 

[Jeanette]

I stopped before my head exploded !!

But don't you just wish you could speak the language

Jx

 

[trimmy]

But don't you just wish you could speak the language

Jx

No learning scouse'' was hard enough

 

[aldevis]

 

[BigMartin]

D is the second grade of C. There is a second between C and D
Between C and F there is a 4th. F is 4 of Cmajor

Yes I know that, but here's how it should go:

C is the first grade of C
D is the second grade of C.
The interval between them is 2 - 1 = 1, so that should have been called a first (just a one or something else reflecting the number 1, not two). Intervals are not notes, they are the vertical "spaces" between notes.
F and A are the 4th and 6th degrees of the C scale. The interval between them is 6 - 4 = 2. Calling it a third is just horrid.

And I don't see anything in my system that leads to division by 0.

 

[aldevis]

And I don't see anything in my system that leads to division by 0.

Root is a vibrating body... it is not a nothing. It has a rational relation with the other degrees (in a non tempered system)
"One" has to be the same in both approaches.
You have to throw the harmonic theory down the drain, not relating it to the scale.

free to do it, but I find the current system exceptionally integrated.

 

[jbtsax]

Now you folks even have me confused talking about "grades" and such and I know this stuff.

It doesn't have to be complicated if one looks at intervals in terms of the diatonic (major) scale.

Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

From step 1 of the scale to step 2 is a major 2nd (1 whole step)
From step 1 of the scale to step 3 is a major 3rd (2 whole steps)
From step 1 of the scale to step 4 is a perfect 4th(2 1/2 (whole) steps )
From step 1 of the scale to step 5 is a perfect 5th(3 1/2 steps)
From step 1 of the scale to step 6 is a major 6th (4 1/2 steps)
From step 1 of the scale to step 7 is a major 7th (5 1/2 steps)
From step 1 of the scale to step 8 is a perfect 8th (6 steps)

I also think that to use the language that a certain chord "dominates" another can be confusing. The V or V7 "leads or pulls" back to I or the tonic. The 3rd of the V chord pulls up to the root of the 1 chord, and the 7 of the V7 chord pulls down to 3rd of the tonic. The 3 and the 7 of the V7 alone create a "tritone" (3 whole steps) which in music is a very unstable interval. It wants to "resolve" to a more stable interval. It is this "tension and release" that produces the characteristic sound of the V7 - I or the ii V7 I that we hear in all styles of music. If the ii is major instead of minor then we have a II - V - I, or II7 - V7 - I which is called "secondary dominance" [there's that confusing word again].

Did this help anyone, or did I make it even more confusing.

 

[BigMartin]

Root is a vibrating body... it is not a nothing.

But it's a note, not an interval. The interval from root to root is nothing. (Or amultiple of a "septave" in my newly-invented terminology)

"One" has to be the same in both approaches.

But note one is (or shouldn't be) the same as an interval of one.

It doesn't have to be complicated if one looks at intervals in terms of the diatonic scale.

But the problem comes when a 3rd plus a third is a fifth etc. I know that's how it is, I'm just saying I find it ugly.

 

[kevgermany]

@aldevis
Sorry, maybe it's language, but the first harmonic is the fundamental. Second harmonic has double the frequency of the fundamental.

However the first overtone is double the frequency of the fundamental.

Back to numbering from 0 or 1...

But I still don't get the tie between fourths and dominants, sorry.

 

[spike]

Thanks jbt - C to F is a perfect 4th and C to A is a major 6th
and by the same token - F to A is a major 3rd (2 whole steps)
I can't find the 0 on my piano did Yamaha rip me off or should I call John Cage or Nicolas Slonimsky?
@BigMartin - you find it ugly ? does it sound ugly ?
It's rather like cubism and the use of perspective in ancient Chinese art.
@kevgermany - yes I've been hacking around on my old johanna all afternoon and I still don't get the tie between fourths and dominants either - seems back to front for my ears although maybe correct in theoretical terms.
"Ear, Ear" that's all I can say me lords.

 

[kevgermany]

For a detailed history of temperaments, intervals, try this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0393334201/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1415129444&sr=8-1&pi=SL75

 

[jimmylh]

I'm confused by the word "perfect". What make those notes perfect? Forgive me as I have a limited theory background. I also get confused with what makes a dominate.

 

[spike]

You'll get more explanations - I'm quoting:
It was considered a sacred interval in medeval times which earned its title of "perfect". The perfect fourth is also well known as the "Amen" at the end of many hymns which are still sung in churches today. It has a "major" sound but also has an open quality to it and some have even described it as meditative.
I'll get my coat, take the dogs for a walk and whistle a few hymns.

 

[kevgermany]

I'm confused by the word "perfect". What make those notes perfect? Forgive me as I have a limited theory background. I also get confused with what makes a dominate.

Originally used to describe intervals that are the same number of semitones in major and minor keys like octaves, fourths, fifths.

As opposed to thirds which are a semitone smaller in a minor key than they are in a major key. So a major third is 4 semitones(e.g. C to E), while a minor third is only 3(e.g. C to Eb).

But the terminology is abused - so you get a minor second of 1 semitone, even though a second is 2 semitones in major and minor scales.

Another explanation is that the perfect intervals sound, harmonically, perfect, as opposed to the others which don't (especially thirds in equal temperament).

 

[aldevis]

If we consider Monday as "day zero" we may end up with a week of only six days...

 

[Jeanette]

If we consider Monday as "day zero" we may end up with a week of only six days...

Well as long as we don't lose Friday like you were threatening here

How con you cope with the major scale? It's like having a week where Tuesday and Sunday are only 12 hours long, and if you work Wednesday to Wednesday you need to adjust Friday!

I like that Friday feeling

 

[ArgoPete]

Hi @kevgermany and all. I am utterly delighted to see this free expression of ideas as I have never met someone I could not learn from even if I totally disagree with them I have to work out why I do.
In this case it became obvious that wind players are typically using Bb or Eb instruments and being jazz players they do like Dorian mode. This takes us down the flat side of the circle regardless of which way one views it. If putting a BEAD on a G string is what grabs you then expressing it left to right is going to be your preference. Whereas if you are switching between Piano, guitar etc. the opposite applies.

I see that the argument re dominants seems to have gone off track as a Fourth is a sub-dominant not leading direct back to the root whereas a Fifth is Dominant and does go back. There again Ornette Coleman, Schonberg, Monk and others like to ignore Diatonic theory all together. Doing so does of course mean that you cannot play with anyone else as the whole underlying structure is built on people playing from the same rule book. I believe Mulligan suggested Ornette leave the stage forthwith, but Ornette founded his own little group of happy dissidents.

I feel with @tenorviol as I was considered a guru NEAT 3 assembler programmer and counting from zero when discussing discrete elements is a nonsense. I see that someone chose birth as a guide and completely misinterpreted it. At birth one is already some period older. The Zero point is passed at partition when you breath. Consider this: if one takes two children into a Glasgow chippie and orders two fish suppers. On delivery one is either going to go hungry or upon arguing that the order is short delivered as in 012 one is likely to end up on the pavement with a free fried mars bar inserted in to an orifice normally regarded as exit only

@spike points out that he plays by ear and music theory just goes through to the keeper. Many musicians do just that but when they get the basics they suddenly realise that 12 hours a night in a Hamburg night club over 3 years learning what works could be replaced with a few hours study.
As for twelfth root of two, that only becomes handy when you have modern electronic equipment. When the well tempered clavier was written and for the next two hundred years tuning was done by ear using a fork or a pitch pipe. Today a conductor simply asks the oboe player for an A concert and everyone else clocks in. Why the oboe, because it is loud and penetrating plus nowadays the player probably tuned up with an electronic helper to get the extra 3 or 4 cents that modern orchestras are looking for (a = 443 hertz not 440)

Thanks again for a wonderful discussion.