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[mfox]

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(image resized by admin)

 

[tris]

First off HI to all!!

Hi Bubbie_king the first thing I would like to say is that in (IMHO) the most important thing in music is to have a great ear. I am self taught but when I approached theory I looked on it as an ear training course. Modes, scales arps, are all just names to help musicians and composers identify sounds. Say Bb Lydian or F major... same notes but a different order producing a different sounds it depends if you look at modes using the parallel approach where you compare a D Dorian to D major or the parallel approach where you look on it as C.

It sounds like you are looking for some funky sounds... I am not sure what you are trying to achieve so it is hard to say try this or try that.

Have you ever heard of Charlie Parker's Diminished harmony or Coltrane's use of a cycle of superimposition, (IE on any chord you can super impose another chord of the same type up a major 3rd or Augmented 5th.) There are some amazing sounds to be found in Quartal harmony that allow you to create movement even on a 1 chord vamp whilst still staying in one tonal centre (EG Dorian.)

In the end of the day you gotta use the approach that works for you, John McLaughlin thinks in terms of scales only I think in terms of chord function (1, 3, 5, 7 and the tensions 9 11 13 plus alterations.)


In his system he breaks chords into 6 basic groups
min7 (Dorian / Aeolian)
maj7 (Ionian / Lydian)
Unaltered dom 7 (Mixolydian / Lydain b7)
Altered dom 7 (Super Locrian / half & whole diminished / Phrygian Major)
min7b5 (Locrian / Aeolian b5 / Locrian nat6)
Diminished ( half & whole diminished / Locrian nat6)

He uses 5 basic approaches for each chord type:

Scales (7 or 8 notes)
Pentatonic & blues
Arpeggios (4 notes)
Triads
Intervals


Hope this helps... Tris

 

[bubbie_king]

Thanks Mfox. That was cool. A lot of passing tones, sounded good when I played it.

Dear Tris,
I found what you had to say verry helpful! I am a little confused about " Diminished harmony" and "cycle of superimposition". Could you Elaborate a bit further?
The way I understood "cycle of superimposition" is I can outline an 'Em' over a 'Cmaj7' because 'E' is the third to C. Not sure? lol

I will look these terms up in hopes of better understanding what your saying.

Also thanks everyone else! Never thought this topic would blow up so big.

I feel that I understand the mode concept better now, and I got some useful information in the process. It literally took several point-of-views to drive a simple concept into my head.

Tahnk you eervy bdoy!

randy

 

[tris]

Hi bubbie...

No sweat.



For example take C7. (Make sure you know all the 7th chords in all 12 keys and all the corresponding scales and arps.)

Parker found that if he played Eb7 arp over a C7 it sounded great. This is superimposing. (using SAME type of chord)

Dominant 7th chords all have alterations, C7b9, C7b5 etc. Parker used all these alterations.

Thus C7 is C E G Bb

Eb7 is Eb7 G bB Dd Eb7 contains the b7 of C7
Also notice Eb7 contains Db (b9 of C7)
Also notice that C7 & Eb7 contain G&bBb

In Birds day this was a very new sound but it is quite common today. Parker often combine the notes of C7 and Eb& over the C7.. as a chord this would be C7b9#9.

The next conclusion is that if a minor 3rd relationship between C and Eb there bust be an equivalent relationship between Eb7 and Gb7. (work this out your self.)

Then another min3rd would be Gb to A. Another minor third bringing him back to C


Give this a try and let me know how you get on!

 

[bubbie_king]

bubbie_king wrote:
Hey everyone. I am new here, and would like some help. :cry: :cry:

Can anyone explain my options while improvising over
Dm7-G7-Cmaj7-Cmaj7
to me.

After a BUNCH of years "playing" guitar, I finnaly found out what it meant to use chord notes in your improvising. I have been blindly using the Blues Scale for years. So I stayed away from anything other than a I-IV-V progression, like 8 and 12 bar blues.

I have allways been familiar with notes and chords, just never understood that the chord tones of the chord beeing played needed to bee on beats 1 and 3.

anyways I played with a iim7-V7-IMaj7 chord progression and realized that I could play a C Major scale and "focus" on the background chord... eg. during Dm7 I played D, F, or A on beats 1+3 and used "runs" and "slurs" sometimes to connect two chords.

I tried finding different ways to play and was refered to "modes", but modes dont really help because I am being told to play what I am allready playing. Like G Mixolydian over G7. Thats what Iv'been doing, but I call it a C Major Scale, just started on G, B, or D...

Then I was told to try G bebop... Well that is a little better because It's different that the C major (G Mixolydian) I have BEEN playing. However, I didnt find the "power" of the bebop... only a little chromaticism between G and F. Whitch I can only to get to sound good decending.

Thanks in advance. Randy.

Ok. After a lot of mumble jumble, I think I have found an explination for modes.

I am most likely just rewording somebody elses difinition, but these are my own words on how I used modes to better myself at music.

The deceptive thing about modes is that even though you think of modes in relation to a key, actually they are a way of "understanding" ALL KEYS at once.

So talking about D Dorian doesnt make sense. But rather talk about "Dorian" as being a small patern (scale) that can "PLACE" you in the right position of a scale.

Please note that I find this as being a QUICK way to LEARN how to play easily in ANY key.
::::So IF your verry intimate with the key of C for example. (You know the whole scale, and the chords that belong to that scale, and the notes and thier relation ship to each chord.) THEN you can "transition" that intamacy to another key peice by peice by using scales.

If there were only one key in music modes would not be here. It is the fact that there are MANY keys, and many relationships to figure out that brings use to modes.

I hope this makes sense. I was playing in C alot, and found that I was uncomfortable in other keys, because I would get lost sometimes. Once I started looking at things in terms of modes, I was able to find my place quickly after getting "off track"

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think there are two distinct ways of looking at modes, and both are useful.

1. Relative to the major scale: ie you think of Dorian as C starting on D, Eb starting on F etc.

2. As a scale in their own right, E.G. Dorian in D is based around D and goes up in intervals TSTTTST.

(1) Can be useful for learning improvisation over a chord sequence (especially in major key)

(2) is useful for modal music, e.g a a tune that is based solely around a mode or modes and is not based on a major scale. (e.g. modal jazz and some folk music).

 

[tris]

Modes by themselves are a bit abstract. If you apply them to a good knowledge of the chords that you are playing they make much more sense.

Is it me but I get the feeling that there is a lot of reading going on here trying to understand the modes without playing them and learning their sounds?

 

[pauloalto]

🙂 Yes, although on paper the notes are the same, as Pete pointed out the intervals are different, and therefore each mode has a distinct sound. e.g. Dorian mode feels very much dorian when you play it. You can become familiar enough with each mode to recognise when it is being used.

Although C Ionan contains all the same note names as D Dorian they are different because each note is a different interval in relation to the root of the scale.

French and English use the same letters to form words, but are a totally different language with a very distinct sound.

 

[martin_br]

A mode is a scale based around a tone.
The mode that begins with a semitone and has a perfect 5th is Phrygian,after the area of present day Turkey from which it was supposed to be the norm.It sounds quite Arabic.

Aeolian is tha natural minor,and since this was once more common than the Ionian mode we are now all familiar with,is the reason that the notes begin on A.(That is,the first note of the most common mode).

Imagine a bunch of monks humming away, like the music from Halo or Tomb Raider.( 🙂 )
It sounds characteristically 'mysterious' and 'sacred' because it is modal.
Dorian in this case.
Or a tune like the first half of La Fiesta (Chick Corea).
It starts in a typically Spanish mode (Mixolydian minor,I think) and moves to the more usual Ionian,giving it a massive cheerful lift.

Mess around with Phrygian on a piano.
Use 4ths and 5ths as 'harmonies' and you'll get a feel for why it's a tonal centre in its own right.

To think of modes in relation to chord progressions is missing the point.
A mode is only a mode so long as its root is the home tone.