Champion B&M alto sax, repairable?

Moz · Jan 13, 2009

A rather nice-sounding (but see problems below) Champion sax has come into my hands for the benefit of my advice to the owner -- someone who hasn't played sax for many years and wants to dispose of it.

Seems it was made in the West Germany (remember that?) so this is no spring chicken and is a budget device.

Larger pads are hard and don't seal well but could be sorted fairly easily.

The big problem is that one of the posts mostly relevant to the G# key has come away from the body. Now I know this is not a viable repair if you give it to a sax repairer, it would cost more than the sax is worth so the word Araldite comes to mind. I have used it to hold the mirror to the windscreen in my car so it can work very well but has anyone used it to repair saxophone posts? Is there any other way that this sax can be repaired economically or is it destined for the Great Gig in the Sky?

Cheers

Moz

Bobby G · Jan 13, 2009

Judging by the odd smear on my YAS 62, one of the posts that hold the big key guard has been fixed on with Araldite or Superglue so it might work on yours Moz, although it sounds like the post on your one will be under more stress.

If it's a choice between glueing and chucking the sax, I'd try the glue, but I would also have a go at soldering it myself if a repairer didn't think it was worth doing. You never know, you might end up with an ok horn.

jonf · Jan 14, 2009

Hi Moz

I've used Araldite to fix older cheapo horns that were not economic to repair properly. Will probably have the likes of Griff and Stephen H rolling their eyes in despair, but it worked out OK on both occasions. Just make sure the contact area is good and clean first. Properly applied, Araldite probably has a strength to rival solder.

Let us know how you get on

Jon

Pete Thomas · Jan 14, 2009

JonF wrote:
Will probably have the likes of Griff and Stephen H rolling their eyes in despair, but it worked out OK on both occasions.

Probably not, most good techs are realistic enough to know whether to repair by the book or to do a good quality "bodge" in keeping with the value of the instrument.

Araldite was used to hold aeroplanes together. If the join is well cleaned first. Araldite would hold up in many cases. Of course there may be an issue when there is quite a lot of stress on a particular post, as in this case, but I see no harm in trying.

Not sure whether Superglue is better or not.

wavygravy · Jan 14, 2009

you can get a sort of araldite made specially for metals...hang on..i`ll go look in my van...Repairite Emergency its called...it comes in two syringes joined together to dispense the correct amount...its really good stuff....you can even drill and tap it when it goes hard...i reckon you would be able to get it from a good engineering wholesaler...a place what sells fixtures and fittings.

hope this helps
ps..be careful though its a very dark colour...from that point of view araldite would be better

neil

stephen_howard · Jan 14, 2009

I'd charge you less than twenty quid to resolder the pillar - might even come in at around a tenner if it's a clean break. You don't need a fancy job, just a quick but effective repair - the horn isn't worth spending too much money on.
You could glue it - but that tends to work only where there's not too much stress floating around...and lone pillars can take a fair bit of punishment.
The Champions had sub-pillars, the main stacks were mounted on a bar which was then mounted on pillars. If one of these comes away and it's not one of the end pillars, it can be glued ( superglue will do ).

Thing is, if you glue it and it doesn't work - and then you take it to a repairer, you'll double the cost of the job because of the hassle of getting the glue off!

Regards,

jonf · Jan 14, 2009

See, I said he'd roll his eyes in despair 😉

Seriously Stephen, ten to twenty quid would be great for a proper repair and would have made the Araldite option unnecessary. In my case, I wasn't that near a repairer I could trust at the time, and by the time I'd factored in transportation costs, I reckoned the true cost of each repair would have been over fifty quid each. That was on two saxes I paid sixty and forty quid for, respectively.

If it's possible to get to a good repairer like Stephen or Griff, who would do a proper repair for a good price, that's obviously a better option than any sort of DIY job, even on a cheapo sax. If not, the Araldite begins to look attractive.

Bobby G · Jan 14, 2009

wavygravy, good man! Can't beat having the stuff 'in the van'. Good man.

If anyone needs drive gears for an Aria pick module I've got hundreds of 'em.

Moz, your problem now is whether it's worth using fifty quid's worth of petrol to get the horn to Stephen for a 10 quid repair.

Moz · Jan 15, 2009

OK, owner has to decide but my personal decision is to go for a soldering repair job (I do a bit of plumbing) which will completely f*** up the finish 'cos i ain't gonna strip it right down. If that doesn't work then the solder sucker takes it all clean off and I stick it with Araldite.

And if none of that works...

...and so to the Great Gig in the Sky

Thanks for all your help.

Moz

stephen_howard · Jan 15, 2009

If you do a bit of plumbing you probably have a blowtorch? You'll certainly need one - a soldering iron will never be up to the job.

The cleanliness of the joint is important, so before you start try to clean as much of the surfaces as you can. If the pillar's completely off simply clean the solder on the base of it and clean the solder on the horn where the pillar sits - you don't need to remove it all, just take it back to bright. If the pillar's not off and you don't want to dismantle the horn, slip a bit of sandpaper ( grit side up ) under the pillar, press the pillar down lightly and drag the sandpaper out. Turn the paper over and repeat for the solder on the body. Be a bit careful here so as to avoid scratching the body too much.

To solder the pillar back on you'll need to pop a drop of flux under the pillar - just a tiny blob will do.
Assuming the pillar's not free you can cut off a piece of solder - about 5mm from a standard 1 or 2mm gauge wire, flatten it out then poke it under the pillar. If the pillar's free, and you have to hold it in place, your best bet would be to tin the base first.

I'm assuming there are pads nearby, so protect them by wrapping foil around them. Make it good and thick ( fold a piece of foil up three or four times ). This will help prevent any pads from burning.

If you can present the flame so that it fires away from the pads, so much the better.

Assuming the job goes well, let it cool then sloosh a bit of cigarette lighter fluid around the pillar to clean off the flux.

If at all possible use leaded solder - unleaded can be a right pig for jobs like this.

Need any more hints, drop me a line.

Regards,

wavygravy · Jan 15, 2009

if only there was some kind of `Haynes` manual type of thing for this...HINT HINT

Taz · Jan 15, 2009

Stephen Howard wrote:
I'm assuming there are pads nearby, so protect them by wrapping foil around them. Make it good and thick ( fold a piece of foil up three or four times ). This will help prevent any pads from burning.

If you can present the flame so that it fires away from the pads, so much the better.

Need any more hints, drop me a line.

Where else can you get fantastic information like this. Knowledge and experience on tap. Cheers Stephen.

griff136 · Jan 15, 2009

Just to add to Stephen's excellent advice - if you're soldering a post back on, place the key that fits on that rod, back on the instrument as this will help you get the post in the right place. If you can also clamp, hold it in postition as well all the better ( I use wire for this purpose.)

Bobby G · Jan 15, 2009

wavygravy wrote:
if only there was some kind of `Haynes` manual type of thing for this...HINT HINT

Didn't I hear a rumour a while ago that one was, erm 'in preparation', possibly by Stephen himself?

Moz · Jan 16, 2009

Yes, the post is completely free so shouldn't be a problem. Might have to buy one of those mini blow torches as I think mine may do more smelting than melting. I want to solder the joint not recycle the entire sax! 🙂

Thanks for the advice.

Will report on my activities.

Cheers

Moz

Stephen Howard wrote:
If you do a bit of plumbing you probably have a blowtorch? You'll certainly need one - a soldering iron will never be up to the job.

The cleanliness of the joint is important, so before you start try to clean as much of the surfaces as you can. If the pillar's completely off simply clean the solder on the base of it and clean the solder on the horn where the pillar sits - you don't need to remove it all, just take it back to bright. If the pillar's not off and you don't want to dismantle the horn, slip a bit of sandpaper ( grit side up ) under the pillar, press the pillar down lightly and drag the sandpaper out. Turn the paper over and repeat for the solder on the body. Be a bit careful here so as to avoid scratching the body too much.

To solder the pillar back on you'll need to pop a drop of flux under the pillar - just a tiny blob will do.
Assuming the pillar's not free you can cut off a piece of solder - about 5mm from a standard 1 or 2mm gauge wire, flatten it out then poke it under the pillar. If the pillar's free, and you have to hold it in place, your best bet would be to tin the base first.

I'm assuming there are pads nearby, so protect them by wrapping foil around them. Make it good and thick ( fold a piece of foil up three or four times ). This will help prevent any pads from burning.

If you can present the flame so that it fires away from the pads, so much the better.

Assuming the job goes well, let it cool then sloosh a bit of cigarette lighter fluid around the pillar to clean off the flux.

If at all possible use leaded solder - unleaded can be a right pig for jobs like this.

Need any more hints, drop me a line.

Regards,