Intonation C note - tuning confusion

[wooster]

Hi all,

I got my alto sax rental and I've had one lesson. By the time we had fixed my reed and mouthpiece etc, we only got round to BAG and C notes and did some simple exercises on these.

I consistently found the C with the middle left finger on the second pearl key to tend to be flat and I need to really strain my lips to get it nearly right.

As I don't have a lesson next week due to the bank holiday and being away, I did a bit of research and found fingering for a C major scale starting with all the pearl keys and the right pinkie on the lower spatula key, however, I've noticed going up the scale, blowing the sax without any keys pressed gives to me what sounds like a fairly correct higher C of that scale and when I go to use the middle finger position I was taught it sounds flat and I need to try lip gymnastics again.

Have I done something wrong here or is there something I don't understand at work?

 

[Pete Thomas]

The saxophone is not automatically in tune, you have to help it along a bit.

 

[mizmar]

Do you have perfect pitch, or good relative pitch or are you using a tuning app?

 

[nigeld]

If you have no fingers down then that should give you a C# - a semitone higher than a C.

It's not very surprising that some notes are out of tune on your first day. Keep practicing and don't worry too much about tuning - it's more important right now to get a solid tone.

 

[wooster]

Thanks folks.

I don't have perfect pitch but I have reasonable relative pitch after playing piano for a while and guitar for about 30 years.

I knew the Sax wasn't in perfect tune but I was puzzled that the C sounded so flat unless I gave it a lot of effort to the point of my mouth aching. It's heavy going. I could only get it roughly in tune and then only for a little while until my mouth got too tired.

I won't expect miracles though, and thank you for your encouraging words. I will stick to getting the tone right for now.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Tuning and intonation on saxophone is a compromise. Unlike piano and guitar.
It's much easier to bend a note down. So we push in a little and bend down the sharp notes to compensate and allow the flat ones to be in tune.
Tuning and intonation on saxophone will drive you round the bend. It will get better as your embouchure develops the muscles and fine control to play melodies etc. autonomically.

 

[6441]

Usually, it's the (open) C# that is flat, I think, and needs to be "pulled up".

 

[Dave Dunn]

Try playing along to the radio using the mouthpiece alone, you'll soon see the range of notes you can play without the saxophone being attached to it, and why you shouldn't worry too much that something is wrong with your sax when first starting out. In some ways I think the years of playing guitar is hindering me when trying to learn sax, they just don't work like that, you have to provide the tuning.

 

[mizmar]

As so often there's a lot of individuality but a consensus seems to be that to tune the thing one;

• set your embouchure
• tune the sax to itself by playing a note low/middle/high (often Bb) and moving the mouthpiece in or out till they sound right (look right on a tuner set to transpose) or such.
• then you have to just get used fine tuning the tuning per tone, if your ears are up to it.

But that depends on having a reasonably stable embouchure and that takes a while to build. So, really don't worry too much too early.
Still, 99% chance you can get C into tune by moving the mouthpiece in or out.

 

[Tenor Viol]

First of all, as a beginner I'd say: don't panic.... It takes a while to develop embouchure.

Secondly... saxes, like guitars, are not necessarily in tune AND the tuning can shift as you play and the instrument warms up. Part of the tuning is adjusted by moving where the mouthpiece is on the neck, part is under the control of your embouchure.

I'd be focusing at the moment on producing the notes and developing the ability to hold a note to a steady pitch.

 

[Guenne]

I knew the Sax wasn't in perfect tune but I was puzzled that the C sounded so flat unless I gave it a lot of effort to the point of my mouth aching.

That's common for beginners.
G, A sound good, B sounds bad and C sounds - well....like a sharp B.
Best thing you can do is practice on the mouthpiece alone. Try to get something around A concert (I think it's Alto).
C soon will be fine.

Good luck, Guenne

P.S.: I see @Dave Dunn solved the problem first 🙂

 

[jbtsax]

The pitch of a given note can be affected by several things:

• The tightness of the embouchure. On the alto sax the pitch on the mouthpiece + neck should be Ab concert.
• The "breath support" that I prefer to call "pressurized air". "Hiss" as loud as you can and blow with that feeling.
• The strength of the reed. Soft reeds tend to play flatter than hard reeds. For a beginner a #2 or 2 1/2 works best.

Make sure the top teeth rest on top of the mouthpiece to support the weight of the head, and the bottom lip is "rolled back" just enough to cover the bottom teeth. To form the saxophone embouchure: the "EE" muscles pull out while the "OO" muscles push in to make a tug-o-war. The "OO's" win, but the "EE's" don't stop pulling. The chin should be "rounded" but not bunched.

A couple of tricks to help the embouchure if the tone sounds "flat" and "flabby" are to pretend the mouthpiece is a "sour lemon" and to raise the eyebrows. To develop a good tone and a strong embouchure it helps to play with a big, full sound using lots of air at the beginning. Get a "big" sound at first and you can work to refine it later.

A test to see if the flat sounding C is you or the saxophone, finger B and add the middle side key on the right hand to play C with an alternate fingering. If that C is in tune, and the middle finger C is quite flat, it is the saxophone and not something you are doing.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Gee whizz. One lesson in and we're suggesting alternate fingerings. Maybe after a week or two. 😉

 

[jbtsax]

Gee whizz. One lesson in and we're suggesting alternate fingerings. Maybe after a week or two. 😉

Please forgive me Colin. It's just a test.

 

[wooster]

Thank you all for your great advice. I'm sure the sax is fine and it's me but as a saxophonist of about 6 days experience I won't worry unduly. As long as my old fingers hold up, I will keep at it

@jbtsax I have changed the reed to a 2 from a 1.5 and will see how it goes. Good tips re the blowing technique too. Thanks

 

[LostCircuits]

Thank you all for your great advice. I'm sure the sax is fine and it's me but as a saxophonist of about 6 days experience I won't worry unduly. As long as my old fingers hold up, I will keep at it

@jbtsax I have changed the reed to a 2 from a 1.5 and will see how it goes. Good tips re the blowing technique too. Thanks

Did you raise your eyebrows? Honestly, I never heard of that one except for Santana using it as mantra for his guitar playing. But, you'll find out soon enough that there are many good tips and they may be contradicting each other. And that's normal because everybody has a different jaw geometry and embouchure. So, try, and stick with what works for you. But, if there is something that does not work for you right now, don't discard it because you may just not have the "tools" yet to take advantage of it. In other words, even if there is something that right now doesn't make sense, remember it and revisit periodically, it may just click and fall right into place.

And don't give up, we've all been there and it is as much the way as the destination

 

[Targa]

Did you raise your eyebrows? Honestly, I never heard of that one except for Santana using it as mantra for his guitar playing.

One eyebrow for a semi-tone?

 

[mizmar]

One eyebrow for a semi-tone?

Oh great.
Now I have to integrate eyebrow raising exercises into my practice sessions.
Every time I read stuff here, it throws up something new to learn....

 

[LostCircuits]

Oh great.
Now I have to integrate eyebrow raising exercises into my practice sessions.
Every time I read stuff here, it throws up something new to learn....

It's like the string theory for saxophones. You raise your eyebrow and your head follows to get you into the correct posture to raise the pitch. I've been practicing this last night for a few hours and it is true, especially for the high C. The higher the eyebrow, the higher the pitch!

But, all jokes aside, it is really a classical example of how our modalities are intertwined with each other. Raising eyebrows, squinting, all will result in a slightly elevated facial tension. I used to use this for a hands-free game controller for computer games.

 

[mizmar]

It's like the string theory for saxophones. You raise your eyebrow and your head follows to get you into the correct posture to raise the pitch. ...

But then my heals lift up... making my tone less open...