Playing general confusion, picking a way.....

E

eb424

Well-Known Member
3,691
london
I'm about four years into playing so complete beginner nowhere near my 10000 hours yet...lol... Due to age diminished mental capacity (age related lol) and eyesight i don't play direct from scores... I have a good tutor who is also a great player I see him on an adhoc basis, i won't do skype lessons as i feel the benefit of a tutor is personal i feel a lot is (can be) lost on line. I can take the basics from a score but cant read fast enough to play a tune and i don't know exactly what i am asking in this thread but feel I am playing alone to often and missing out on the social side of music...I guess we all have been over the last year....My usual routine is to buy the score, transpose for tenor in the original key, and write the notes in letter format above the notation so as I can see it clearly. I then copy the lyrics of the song in word and download the original tune from you tube in an mp3 format to use as a backing track which essentially is the only way I can understand beat rhythm and tempo. I usually play middle of the road music and have 2 mates who also play this way but we don't meet that often anymore...For some strange reason i seem to have stumbled upon Glen Miller, lol, its so different than my usual genre I was trying to get "Me and Bobby Mc gee" completed and trying to learn that. I think I like rock sax as it seems less complex and trying to play to tempo has enhanced my fingering technique, breathing, and has got me to the point where I am. I guess the main issue is I don't know where I am playing wise and following the path I have I can't play in a small group and have no grades to establish what I need to learn; Aside from that the system works well. I guess GAS materialises in many forms, I don't need anymore gear but feel I am missing out socially and for me I want to be the best saxophonist I can be, do i need to read music to be able to achieve this? At the risk of upsetting most people on here I find Jazz to chaotic or so I thought, my journey started just wanting to play middle of the road whole tunes/ harmonics but afteer four years my journey only just seems to be beginning. I have found a few (jazzy) tracks that I like and am currently working on Chatanooga choo choo, which I guess is technically swing....This brings in the issue of playing on the upbeat, I have followed my usual routine and have the backing track, score and lyrics but would like to understand the concept / theory of music and understand timing and rhythm through the score. Both my mates just use letters to play but I feel lost that way so I write the notes on the score in the hope that I will get an understanding of note duration, rhythm, tempo and may be able to learn (basic) music that way...and give me a chance of playing with others...I guess I would get laughed at if i turned up with a score with notes written above but as a 55 year old don't know if I have left it to late to read music now....I feel that I am at a crossroads, I will never be a pro musician but don't know what I need to be the best I can be. Time for a lesson I guess.....
 
I am not sure how often you see your teacher but I am surprised after four years that he has not helped you down the path of reading music, I know its been difficult with lockdown.
If its a problem with you seeing the notes then buy some cheap ready readers that will work well at about a metre from the music.
A good book for music theory is " The AB Guide to Music Theory" part 1 by Eric Taylor.
Reading music is all about practise and the more you do it the easier it becomes, you are never too old to learn just start with very simple tunes.
Writing the letters above notes is always going to limit your playing and I know some players never learn to read and play by ear but doing both will push your music skills so that you can play with other players and hold your own.
Everyone that reads has to start at the beginning and there are no shortcuts but if your desire is to play with other groups then it will help.
 
Sounds like it's time for you to invest in learning to read music. It will take time and work. I wonder if a fairly simple tutorial book would help - one with simple tunes but without the note names written down. You may find the tunes a bit dull, but if they help then it would be worth it. Maybe one of the teachers on the forum can suggest something suitable. @jbtsax ?

Or you could look through the Café songs and ballads of the month for something you like and work at learning it from the notes.
 
nigeld said:
Sounds like it's time for you to invest in learning to read music. It will take time and work. I wonder if a fairly simple tutorial book would help - one with simple tunes but without the note names written down. You may find the tunes a bit dull, but if they help then it would be worth it. Maybe one of the teachers on the forum can suggest something suitable. @jbtsax ?

Or you could look through the Café songs and ballads of the month for something you like and work at learning it from the notes.
Click to expand...
Thanks @nigeld... i can recognise the notes and name them seeing them is the issue oh and speed. Guess that its time to make a choice..
 
Small observation. Randy Hunters "learning sax, the jazz approach" might tick most the boxes you identify. One lesson per note to learn to read, up/down beat exercises, a little bit to copy, a little call and respond.
It's the first stuff I did because I really didn't want to learn twinkle twinkle little star.
You never have to play jazz again. But it lines up the page, ear and fingers.

Full disclosure, nothing to disclose.
 
Last edited:
I think that there are several different things to unpick in here.

First one I think is that you need to get the right sort of glasses for reading music that's on a stand. Either a separate pair with an 'intermediate distance' reading prescription, or what are sometimes known as 'occupational' lenses. These have a mix of intermediate and standard reading distance. They also have an enhanced depth of fiedl meaning you can see further without loss of focus. I first got them for office work at the computer AND for reading music when playing in orchestra.

Next, the basics of reading music are not difficult - the number of symbols is limited. It takes a while to get fluent, but the you will make steady progress if you do a little each day. Make a set of flash cards with one for every note from bottom Bb up to say top F#, plus ones for each note length (semi-breve, minim crotchet etc). Make it a habit to pick five at random and say what they are - turn over to get the answer.

Join some sort of community band/group - that will get you playing with others and will pull you along quicker as well. There are groups at every level so don't worry about a lack of experience. You're in London so there are definitely groups around there (City & Lit? Morley?)
 
I think one thing that might help you (aside from reading) would be to find the simplest songs, determine the notes of the melody without writing the letters down, slowly but surely, and then put them together, phrase by phrase. My suggestions would be something like Tennessee Waltz, Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (song of the month 2019), When I fall in Love, or Amazing Grace. These are all simple major songs. Finding the notes is part of ear training. Regardless of reading, you must learn to recognize notes to play anything beyond percussion. Listening and hearing are among the most important parts of learning to play music. It's good to listen to as much music as possible, and classical music is very good training, too. Although it takes years to play, listening to the great symphonies and concertos and learning to hear (not play) the melodies of even small parts is very good practice. The nice thing about listening is, it requires no breath, no physical effort, only time and relaxation.
 
mizmar said:
Small observation. Randy Hunters "learning sax, the jazz approach" might tick most the boxes you identify. One lesson per note to learn to read, up/down beat exercises, a little bit to copy, a little call and respond.
It's the first stuff I did because I really didn't want to learn twinkle twinkle little star.
You never have to play jazz again. But it lines up the page, ear and fingers.

Full disclosure, nothing to disclose.
Click to expand...
I think its twinkle twinkle that puts me of to.. 🙂 tbf....
 
eb424 said:
I think its twinkle twinkle that puts me of to.. 🙂 tbf....
Click to expand...
As you saw in my "one step beck" thread, I'm not averse to both ploughing ahead nor going back to sort stuff out. Sometimes one can actually extract more out of "easier" material that way. But that's my personalty.
It's possible, if you commit to doing that course slowly... You'd come out with a bit of reading skills, some understanding of basic jazz method and even some firming up of stuff you already know. 3 months?
 
Not sure if I fully understand... however, to try to be helpful, to learn to read notes if you don't have great vision, is TomPlay. You can get the music nice and big on the screen, and it has a "play along" bar that points at the notes you need to play. You can slow the music down, which can be helpful, plus you can set a line, or phrase or verse or whatever on repeat, so you can focus on a stanza or two. The music can be chosen on difficulty, which also helps in learning to read music. You can play unaccompanied, or accompanied, as you like. You can also get the tune played along as you learn.
 
mizmar said:
As you saw in my "one step beck" thread, I'm not averse to both ploughing ahead nor going back to sort stuff out. Sometimes one can actually extract more out of "easier" material that way. But that's my personalty.
It's possible, if you commit to doing that course slowly... You'd come out with a bit of reading skills, some understanding of basic jazz method and even some firming up of stuff you already know. 3 months?
Click to expand...
Hi Thanks @mizmar Ive had a quick look good price and interesting...I don't really care what I play TBF I think I'm just getting a bit fed up playing on my own... motivation obviously a bit low today... If I could find a group to play in think I would move on a bit quicker...To be fair... When Im playing with my mates who use the same format it's great and does work but I'm not going to be able to play with anyone else but ive looked and theres not much around...I know its not as black and white as having to pick a direction i.e. reading music or not i guess I just have to decipher if it is restricting my progression and where I want to go...
 
Mat said:
Not sure if I fully understand... however, to try to be helpful, to learn to read notes if you don't have great vision, is TomPlay. You can get the music nice and big on the screen, and it has a "play along" bar that points at the notes you need to play. You can slow the music down, which can be helpful, plus you can set a line, or phrase or verse or whatever on repeat, so you can focus on a stanza or two. The music can be chosen on difficulty, which also helps in learning to read music. You can play unaccompanied, or accompanied, as you like. You can also get the tune played along as you learn.
Click to expand...
Thanks @Mat....I will have a look....there are a few good apps too....think I just need a kick up the Arsenal today.....
 
mizmar said:
Here's a thought, if one or both your mates where up for it, you could do the jazz method course together, then you could do the call and response bits with each other...
Click to expand...
The whole trouble is one of them has been playing for forty years he doesn't read music is self taught and does clubs and pubs... He does make me wonder whether I need the theory...My other mate moved away and we catch up now and again, he is more my standard..TBF i think if I was playing more with my mates \I would wonder whether to go down the reading music route but as I am not seeing them so often my only option is to learn and try to join a local group, not many around by the looks of things tho.... thanks for the answers tho motivation picking up..time for a blowout in the caravan I think....
 
Learning to read is a slow and repetitive business, I've been learning for about 40 years and still can't just put a new piece on the stand and play it. I take it slow to start with, make mistakes, listen to how it should sound, have another look and correct things one at a time. I know people who can read straight off the bat and one in particular has spent years in a big band so she has the speed and the phrasing down pat. I only want to read so that I can get the tune down faster, I'm not interested in being able to read scores perfectly first time, but the more I do the better I get so take it slow and easy, set yourself realistic objectives and do a bit every day.

Reading opens up other areas and also helps with getting to grips with chords, scales and theory generally. Writing notes along the top is never going to do it and just makes it harder but I know people older than you who've been playing longer than you who still do it and have a sneaky little scale chart by the side as well, if only they'd learn their scales, even just the Majors, they would find life much enriched. Just stick at it, a bit at a time, and it will get easier. You're probably not going to be able to read Joy Spring or Anthropology at first sight for quite a while but you can get to the point where you can work it out. You're not likely to find yourself in the position of having a new, complicated piece put in front of you that you're expected to read. Try something like Stella by Starlight, just the melody the chords are difficult, or Freddie Freeloader where the chords are easier.

Having said all that reading isn't the be all and end all, learn tunes off the record as well.
 
Why not commit to one of the recording threads on here. I always find that motivates me. Doesn't have to be the full tune.

I know I've tried to persuade you to learn to read before and understand why you haven't wanted to but I think you'll find it opens more doors and once you start I'm sure you will soon pick it up.

Jx
 
Jimmymack said:
Learning to read is a slow and repetitive business, I've been learning for about 40 years and still can't just put a new piece on the stand and play it. I take it slow to start with, make mistakes, listen to how it should sound, have another look and correct things one at a time. I know people who can read straight off the bat and one in particular has spent years in a big band so she has the speed and the phrasing down pat. I only want to read so that I can get the tune down faster, I'm not interested in being able to read scores perfectly first time, but the more I do the better I get so take it slow and easy, set yourself realistic objectives and do a bit every day.

Reading opens up other areas and also helps with getting to grips with chords, scales and theory generally. Writing notes along the top is never going to do it and just makes it harder but I know people older than you who've been playing longer than you who still do it and have a sneaky little scale chart by the side as well, if only they'd learn their scales, even just the Majors, they would find life much enriched. Just stick at it, a bit at a time, and it will get easier. You're probably not going to be able to read Joy Spring or Anthropology at first sight for quite a while but you can get to the point where you can work it out. You're not likely to find yourself in the position of having a new, complicated piece put in front of you that you're expected to read. Try something like Stella by Starlight, just the melody the chords are difficult, or Freddie Freeloader where the chords are easier.

Having said all that reading isn't the be all and end all, learn tunes off the record as well.
Click to expand...
Hi Thanks @Jimmymack.... I do read and transpose from the original score but writing above makes it easier to see and quicker to play....the only reason I want to read is I am fed up with playing alone and the only way I can join a group is by playing and reading music.. TBF it doesnt take me to long to transpose and write up a score I just seem to have a block playing from it... Think I'm just a it fed up with it today had reeds and mouthpiece sorted but the caravans to hot for wood so had to get a legere quite pleased with it actually... I do agree that reading music isn't the be all and end all but most groups and training days expect it.... I don't know why whats the bif deal if I am given a part to play and have to write it out...more than one way of skinning a cat etc.. 🙂
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

Featured Classifieds

Join us in the Cafe!
Follow us: Bluesky  Facebook

Popular Discussions on the Café

Calendar events

Latest Song of the Month

Forum statistics

Topics
27,647
Messages
501,405
Members
6,932
Latest member
RodrigoG
Back
Top Bottom