Saxophones Buescher Aristocrat "Big B"

[tburn9876]

Sometimes folks just have these, and they just need to liquidate them.

I've been here before lol. Sold many instruments at less than desirable price. I didn't put in an offer he lowered the price, and I jumped on it probably an hour after he did. As for the other offers, they were probably lower than $190 he lowered the price to.

 

[Ghr9204]

I've heard of people buying from him, and he's in business, but I'm not gonna bother trying to figure out what I have to do to earn his favor or whatever needs to be done.

Sounds like a few motorcycle dealers I visited. Needless to say, I quietly walked away.

 

[Ghr9204]

Sometimes folks just have these, and they just need to liquidate them. Such finds happen , rarely, but they do, now and again.

There are a few instances where I was on the receiving end of such a woodwind. When it happens, I am overjoyed. These of course were not pro models but all the same, decent players sold for a fraction of their market worth.

 

[tburn9876]

There are a few instances where I was on the receiving end of such a woodwind. When it happens, I am overjoyed. These of course were not pro models but all the same, decent players sold for a fraction of their market worth.

So I've learned the seller is a music educator. That seems to open up a whole can of worms as to the price, but I'd take his word on it being playable. He's also a trumpet major so maybe he legitimately doesn't know the value, or specifically what he has.

 

[Ghr9204]

He's also a trumpet major so maybe he legitimately doesn't know the value, or specifically what he has.

Or, he knows it is old, will need servicing to possibly include a complete overhaul, already has some patina, and so he wants to move it along to someone who will appreciate it. Apparently not many value it, otherwise it would have been gone a long time ago.

I purchased 3 Boosey & Hawkes clarinets for a song. They need varying work. One needs only minor servicing. These are the intermediate Edgware. Said to be a decent sounding woody for the financially struggling gigging saxist who want a doubler. Here in US the Boosey & Hawkes are IMO an underdog.

Value then is in the eye of the beholder. In reality most people don't care what brand or level of instrument a musician plays. They just want good sounding music. If they sound like a pro on less than pro equipment, then that is all that matters.

 

[tburn9876]

Or, he knows it is old, will need servicing to possibly include a complete overhaul, already has some patina, and so he wants to move it along to someone who will appreciate it.

This seems likely, but hopefully he has integrity and has play tested it, and isn't lying or totally ignorant when he says its in playable condition. I only note he's a trumpet major because perhaps that simply means he isn't as in the know as someone who specializes in saxophones. He seems only to have sold trumpet related items in the past.

Apparently not many value it, otherwise it would have been gone a long time ago.

I think the marketing is really poor, cause everyone talks pretty highly of pre-Selmer buyout Bueschers. Pic 1 is close to what the thumbnail would have looked like, he misspelled Buescher so Reverb creates a category for that (see pic 2) theres only a few in that category, whilst Reverb has nearly 200 listed for the correct spelling. I assume this is to allow relatively unknown, rare, or new brands to be searched, but anyone looking for a Buescher and searching by brand won't see it. I found it personally by looking through about 15 pages of an "alto saxophone" search sorted lowest to highest with $500 being my maximum price. I put on my watchlist cause it said playable condition, and it was in my range I didn't thoroughly examine each photo and realize what it was until I got an email notifying me of a price drop.

 

[tburn9876]

This is a transcript of the text part of the advert:

Beuscher Aristrocrat Alto Saxophone

Model 140

Serial # 32442

Comes in original case. In playable condition.

I did some basic google searches (and bing lol) with terms like "buescher aristocrat saxophone model 140" and nothing really turns about Big B or aristocrat series II and most of the saxes are priced modestly $300 - $500. I dove into cafesaxophone and saxontheweb and read about the Big B and started searching that to find out about it. I also found out that case isn't the original and is likely a Selmer tripac (possibly from a mark VI??? I can't confrim that though)

 

[Ghr9204]

This seems likely, but hopefully he has integrity and has play tested it, and isn't lying or totally ignorant when he says its in playable condition.

There is a difference between playable and optimally playable.

You can play a sax that has leaks. This means that all keys are present and it can be successfully serviced.

For the price you are paying for it, technically if you needed to have it fully overhauled would still be worth it.

I also found out that case isn't the original and is likely a Selmer tripac (possibly from a mark VI??? I can't confrim that though)

Could be simply an honest mistake.

However I suspect that a standard service for a couple hundred dollars would make it fully playable. You'll know more once it is in your hands. Keep us posted and enjoy!

 

[tburn9876]

There is a difference between playable and optimally playable.

You can play a sax that has leaks. This means that all keys are present and it can be successfully serviced.

For the price you are paying for it, technically if you needed to have it fully overhauled would still be worth it.

Could be simply an honest mistake.

However I suspect that a standard service for a couple hundred dollars would make it fully playable. You'll know more once it is in your hands. Keep us posted and enjoy!

I am excited, I don't mean to go on and on with pure speculation. I've been in full on antiques road show mode since I made the purchase. It might even have the original lacquer based on what I can see of the engraving. I also don't care about the case being original or not, but that came up in the depths I've plunged researching it, plus I can put my flute and clarinet in it and pretend like I'm even halfway proficient with either of those instruments.

 

[Merryfisher]

I didn't think about that, seller has only has only sold a few items, but the feedback he has is all 5 stars. I feel like if it was hot he would have made it down to the post on the day I bought it or yesterday. We'll find out, I'll post some pics when I get it. My guess is the guy needed money, times are tough, and he wanted a quicker sale, it was only listed for 2 months total, and as I said he didn't have it tagged with "Big B" or "Aristocrat II" just Aristocrat and the serial number. It had 10 offers and 167 views and 7 watchers.

I wasn’t trying to be funny, it just that when something is advertised at almost a tenth of the market price it must raise questions. A Big B alto in the UK is around £1500 (about 2000 usd) in a dealer, bit less private sale. So a price of 190 usd or £150 does provoke questions at the very least

 

[tburn9876]

I wasn’t trying to be funny, it just that when something is advertised at almost a tenth of the market price it must raise questions. A Big B alto in the UK is around £1500 (about 2000 usd) in a dealer, bit less private sale. So a price of 190 usd or £150 does provoke questions at the very least

Well buyer protection exists, so if I don't get whats advertised, or nothing at all I'll end up with my money back. If it needs a full overhaul so be it. I know the US is in a full on recession right now, perhaps the guy is in a bad spot where anything is better than nothing. I've spent more on groceries for 2 weeks than what that saxophone cost personally.

 

[Grumps]

I wasn’t trying to be funny, it just that when something is advertised at almost a tenth of the market price it must raise questions. A Big B alto in the UK is around £1500 (about 2000 usd) in a dealer, bit less private sale. So a price of 190 usd or £150 does provoke questions at the very least

Different here in the States. Only a vintage horn dealer is going to tell you a Big B alto is worth fifteen hundred. Maybe in mint condition for a collector, but not an old, probably relacquered alto needing an overhaul. That the horn had been available for a bit and then dropped in price should tell you more about its present value than potential theft in the past.

It's a great deal on a good horn, no doubt. But heck, I found a Big B tenor sold locally not too far in the distant past for five hundred bucks. It's not like a lottery win.

 

[JayeNM]

I've been here before lol. Sold many instruments at less than desirable price. I didn't put in an offer he lowered the price, and I jumped on it probably an hour after he did. As for the other offers, they were probably lower than $190 he lowered the price to.

Just shocks me that someone didn't grab it for $190, that's crazy...the only thing I can think is..you said he only had 5 feedbacks ? How old was the last feedback ? Perhaps folks were thinking it was a scam. At 5 feedbacks only, that thought would cross my mind. Keep track of the package, hopefully this will all go well (I think it will).

This is a transcript of the text part of the advert:

Beuscher Aristrocrat Alto Saxophone

Model 140

Serial # 32442

Comes in original case. In playable condition.

I did some basic google searches (and bing lol) with terms like "buescher aristocrat saxophone model 140" and nothing really turns about Big B or aristocrat series II and most of the saxes are priced modestly $300 - $500. I dove into cafesaxophone and saxontheweb and read about the Big B and started searching that to find out about it. I also found out that case isn't the original and is likely a Selmer tripac (possibly from a mark VI??? I can't confrim that though)

Strange paragraph that last one - if someone DID do some research on Big B online, they should have found out that an Alto is worth more than $300-500, project.

He may have just looked at general Buescher prices. One can sorta interpret that sentence in that way: "I couldn't find info on a 140 or Aristocrat 2 price, but Bueschers seem to be priced at around $300-500"

....although he clearly states he was sussing out "Big B" on these forums.

Other thing again, as I mentioned earlier, online prices (ended auctions, say) for "Big B" can be adulterated because some sellers call the 60's-70's ones "Big B's" so those would show up sold for $100-200 and that could lower the entire average if you happen to hit the 'sold items' search on the wrong day or month)

Again, keep us posted.

 

[JayeNM]

BTW...the horn as pictured is ...110% .....absolutely ....NOT a relacquer.

That's an original lacq horn, the pic is clear enough to show this.

 

[tburn9876]

Strange paragraph that last one

Sorry lol. I was meaning to say I tried to put myself in a seller's shoes whose just trying to list something he doesn't know much about, and just using the terms he used himself, there wasn't a lot of info that popped up, and all of the listings on google shopping are right around $400, the original price before he dropped it to $190. For all we know he may have been misinformed himself. Thankfully this horn is from a time when instruments weren't virtually indistinguishable from another and it's obvious what it is from the 4 photos.

BTW...the horn as pictured is ...110% .....absolutely ....NOT a relacquer.

I found a video on the subject specifically, Big B lacquer, and the photos align with what was said in the video, the sharpness of the engraving, and the corrosion inside of it.

 

[Grumps]

I found a video on the subject specifically, Big B lacquer, and the photos align with what was said in the video, the sharpness of the engraving, and the corrosion inside of it.

It's certainly possible, but probably not if it was ever overhauled in the nearly eighty years since it was made. They'd relacquer horns back then as a matter of course. You'd have to have it in your hands to be 100% certain.

 

[tburn9876]

It's certainly possible, but probably not if it was ever overhauled in the nearly eighty years since it was made. They'd relacquer horns back then as a matter of course. You'd have to have it in your hands to be 100% certain.

Oh man I know, the anticipation is absolutely killing me.

 

[Grumps]

Oh man I know, the anticipation is absolutely killing me.

I've had a couple refinished Bueschers and my favorite, an ancient curved soprano, has been refinished at least three times; the last of which was at my direction. Even if yours had been, it's still gonna play great when it's fixed up and the price is still a steal. I think you can see the snap-ins still intact on the bell pads and what springs I can make out sort of look rather thick and blunt at the end like Nortons. All very good signs if in fact the case.

 

[tburn9876]

I think you can see the snap-ins still intact on the bell pads and what springs I can make out sort of look rather thick and blunt at the end like Nortons. All very good signs if in fact the case.

These are the things I couldn't make out myself. Is there someone who could tell if its a re lacquer or not online? I'm still feeling out all the techs in my area, there seem to be only a few congregated in OKC, and one over in a slightly bigger town than where I'm located. I can get more pics of course when I actually get the horn.

 

[Grumps]

Is there someone who could tell if its a re lacquer or not online?

With photos online, it's easier to rule out original lacquer than to confirm it. It can be a rather entertaining riddle when the issue comes up and it's always best to consider all clues in this regard. Not sure if Jason Dumars frequents this site, but as an engraver he's very good at sorting out the clues. Even saxophone technicians can be fooled by a good relacquer. I had an old Selmer alto that one tech (as well as several players) told me was original. Then I had another tech say it wasn't. Why? Because he was the one that relacquered it for the previous owner!

But again, I wouldn't worry about yours. You certainly didn't pay a premium for it and original lacquer is only going to be an issue if you're going to flip the horn. And quite frankly, you may in fact want to do this. I mean... folks here are telling you that the horn could be valued much higher. If it turns out yours has its original finish, snap-in resonators and Norton springs, properly advertised it may bring you a tidy profit should the horn not turn you on otherwise.