Borgani Tenor Saxophone - Semitone Flat

[Stephen Howard]

It surprises me that that surprised you. Even with my limited experience I've met a couple of really bad payers who had set themselves up as teachers and were taking money from unsuspecting kids.

I'd be inclined to agree - but this was a school peripatetic, and I would have assumed the standards required were reasonably high.

 

[Dibbs]

...One day when my "artificial embouchure" is completed...

I notice that the chamber is much bigger than a real mouth. You might find this interesting.

Klarinet - 1998 12 000764

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'd be inclined to agree - but this was a school peripatetic, and I would have assumed the standards required were reasonably high.

Yes, given the demand for that kind of work, there's no reason for a school to employ anyone less than stella

 

[Pete Thomas]

I notice that the chamber is much bigger than a real mouth. You might find this interesting.

Klarinet - 1998 12 000764

I don't believe volume of mouth cavity has any significant effect whatsoever. It's quite difficult to change the volume significantly without also altering the lip pressure/position which I think is what is causing the difference.

I can change the volume enormously by puffing out my cheeks - no difference in sound at all in any way shape or form.

This was also what found by Dr. Edward Pillinger found when experimenting with an artificial embouchure using different simulated volume and texture of mouth cavity.

 

[Dibbs]

I don't believe volume of mouth cavity has any significant effect whatsoever. It's quite difficult to change the volume significantly without also altering the lip pressure/position which I think is what is causing the difference.

I can change the volume enormously by puffing out my cheeks - no difference in sound at all in any way shape or form.

This was also what found by Dr. Edward Pillinger found when experimenting with an artificial embouchure using different simulated volume and texture of mouth cavity.

On a soprano sax or a clarinet I can bend a top C (second ledger line) down at least a 4th whist keeping my mouth and lips absolutely solid. I've checked in a mirror. I can't get anything like that amount just with changing lip pressure. It feels like I'm changing something in my throat but perhaps I'm actually raising the back of my tongue. It only works so dramatically in that pitch region but it's possible to a lesser degree elsewhere on the instrument. There was some heated discussion about this on the clarinet bb recently. It seems that some people do it naturally and others, who don't, refuse to believe it. Make of it what you will but it makes the Rhapsody in Blue gliss really easy.

 

[spike]

It seems that some people do it naturally and others, who don't, refuse to believe it.

Played blues harp for a few years before I finally became a saxer. Bending notes on the harp, you kind of "eat" the notes inside the mouth and draw them down. Being able to do it on harp it was a no brainer to do the same thing on the horn.
I don't think I could teach anyone how to do it.
I do it over the whole range on tenor whereby the higher the note the greater the bend.

 

[Pete Thomas]

On a soprano sax or a clarinet I can bend a top C (second ledger line) down at least a 4th whist keeping my mouth and lips absolutely solid. I've checked in a mirror. I can't get anything like that amount just with changing lip pressure. It feels like I'm changing something in my throat but perhaps I'm actually raising the back of my tongue. It only works so dramatically in that pitch region but it's possible to a lesser degree elsewhere on the instrument. There was some heated discussion about this on the clarinet bb recently. It seems that some people do it naturally and others, who don't, refuse to believe it. Make of it what you will but it makes the Rhapsody in Blue gliss really easy.

Yes, I'm aware of and also use this technique for bending high notes huge amounts, it's also useful for the famous "Seagull" effect. This is quite a specialised technique and is a tiny difference that has a huge effect, as opposed to what happens in "normal" playing when oral cavity has no significant effect. For me anyway.

 

[spike]

the famous "Seagull" effect

What's that PT - I can imagine what you mean but I've never heard of it until now.

 

[Pete Thomas]

What's that PT - I can imagine what you mean but I've never heard of it until now.

That's because nobody has ever done it apart from me, and I believe it would be ungentlemanly of me to perform it publicly.

 

[jbtsax]

That's because nobody has ever done it apart from me, and I believe it would be ungentlemanly of me to perform it publicly.

You would be most welcome to play that sound in Utah since the garbage scavenging seagull is our revered state bird.

 

[Reed Warbler]

Possibly the previous owner of the Borghani played it with a m/piece with a much wider bore than a Yamaha. If your neck cork works with an Otto Link, it will be too thick for a PPT. M/pieces differ which is why plumber's tape is sometimes used when switching pieces. Pity there's not a standard fit. It would make comparing pieces much easier.

 

[jbtsax]

This discussion has taken a turn to an area of acoustics that I am most interested in. That is the effects of the player's "windway" on the pitch and timbre of the note(s) being played. Acoustic scientists often refer to this as "upstream" of where the tone is produced by the reed's vibrations. This might even be a good topic for a new thread. Both Joe Wolf at UNSW and Gary Scavone at McGill University have conducted some fascinating studies of this aspect of saxophone playing. Attached is the study done by Gary Scavone and some of his colleagues. Don't be "put off" by the complex mathematics. You can glean a lot of understanding by "reading around the math" like I do.

 

[spike]

This might even be a good topic for a new thread.

Please do @jbtsax - It's a fascinating subject.
The ability to control the vocal tract whether consciously or unconsciuosly seems to me to be key to the way we speak and express ourselves.

 

[StageFright]

FWIW I had a Borgani tenor from roughly the mid 90's that had the key heights set a too low. Intonation and tuning on the instrument were fine however the horn played with significant resistance, and it was a real challenge to make the lowest notes speak. I had a good tech raise the key heights and the horn played effortlessly while still maintaining intonation and tuning. Also any mouthpiece I tried on the horn sat a good 1/4 inch farther onto the neck to be in tune than when I used the same mouthpiece on my Yamaha tenors. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Keep Blowing]

This discussion has taken a turn to an area of acoustics that I am most interested in. That is the effects of the player's "windway" on the pitch and timbre of the note(s) being played. Acoustic scientists often refer to this as "upstream" of where the tone is produced by the reed's vibrations. This might even be a good topic for a new thread. Both Joe Wolf at UNSW and Gary Scavone at McGill University have conducted some fascinating studies of this aspect of saxophone playing. Attached is the study done by Gary Scavone and some of his colleagues. Don't be "put off" by the complex mathematics. You can glean a lot of understanding by "reading around the math" like I do.

I heard this programme on the radio some time ago. may be of interest.
Inside the brain of a beatboxer