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Borgani Tenor Saxophone - Semitone Flat

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Danielepaolo

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Thanks Nigel, I will let him now.

Hi Alice. He has another mouthpiece, a Vandoren TL4, that he has been using on this saxophone. The TL4 is at school on the schools sax so we put the yamaha 4c (that came with the Borgani sax) for the picture. Both mouthpieces go on about the same.

Cheers Pete. Will do.
 
Pete Thomas

Pete Thomas

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Hi Alice. He has another mouthpiece, a Vandoren TL4, that he has been using on this saxophone. The TL4 is at school on the schools sax so we put the yamaha 4c (that came with the Borgani sax) for the picture. Both mouthpieces go on about the same.

Do they both have the exact same tuning issue?
 
D

Danielepaolo

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Yes. Should not have left it unsaid. Same issue whichever mouthpiece is played.
 
jbtsax

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I was going to get into some mathematics involving wavelengths to point out what distance constitutes a half step near the top of the sax, but I realized there is an easier and faster way. If one looks at the upper edge of the tonehole that the Bis key covers, and then the upper edge of the tonehole the A key covers, it is that distance that represents the length change to produce a half step between written B and Bb.
 
JayeNM

JayeNM

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2 pages into this thread and nobody has yet mentioned another possible solution to this issue. It involves taking the horn to a tech.

Have them determine whether the keyheights should be opened up a bit. Opening/raising the keyheights can sharpen the entire horn in all registers. It may well just be the regulation on that particular horn has the heights set too low.

It's an 80's horn, BTW. Nice horn. But don't be confused between these and a contemporary Borgani, there is a very significant difference. Nevertheless, a nice, solid vintage player you have there.
They really do NOT have intrinsic maladies as far as internal geometry and the like. When set up correctly, they tend to have pretty good intonation.


So, the likelihood that it came out of the factory blowing dramatically flat....is....unlikely. Could be a lemon, but probably not.

Yes, he can push the b'jeezus out of the mouthpiece onto the cork if he wants (just sand down cork a bit), and if that solves the issue then no harm done whatsoever. As JB notes, the cork does look a bit short, and the mouthpiece as you have shown it seems to be on 3/4 of the way....so...

.... if the cork is 3/4 the length of what it should be and the m'pc is on the cork 3/4 of the way, then it's only on a 'normal' cork 1/2-way...when it should be around 3/4 way on a 'normal' cork....which might be what makes it play flat.

But if that doesn't get him there and he still has to work hard to get the horn near in tune, I would inquire about the keyheights.
 
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J

JazzMatt

 
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Borgani saw the pictures and said I need to get the mouthpiece on further.

Pete, looks like some sanding and greasing is on the way s you suggest. I will also look for some guide on the net to help him but still will take the instrument down to Melbourne tomorrow. Previously my son has been accostomed to the the mouthpiece hanging off his school yamahas and part way on his bari sax.

Cheers for all your help. I will get back with the resolution (confident we will have one now). I will try and convince my son to play a tune as thanks so you can guys hear how good the Borgani sounds.

This is a useful video regarding sanding the neck/crook cork

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9dlVNSmVVE
 
nigeld

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2 pages into this thread and nobody has yet mentioned another possible solution to this issue. It involves taking the horn to a tech.

Actually they did. See posts number 8 and 10. And the OP made clear in the original post that they are planning to take it to a tech.
Hence the concentration on things that they can do themselves.
 
nigeld

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A question for the experts: Could adjusting the key heights really make a semitone difference for the whole range of the instrument?
 
Stephen Howard

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A question for the experts: Could adjusting the key heights really make a semitone difference for the whole range of the instrument?

Realistically, no.
 
jbtsax

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Realistically, no.
I agree. Besides, one of the photos clearly shows that the key heights are not lower than what is in a normal range for a tenor sax.
 
nigeld

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The possibilities that folk have come up with are:
1. Mouthpiece not pushed far enough onto the neck.
2. Neck not seated properly in the body - seems unlikely given that the player is very competent. But worth double-checking
3. Neck too long. But the neck looks just like the one in @jbtsax picture, so it seems unlikely that it is the neck for a different sax.
4. Player problem - seems extremely unlikely given that the player is very competent, and his teacher has the same problem.
5. Key heights - but this seems unlikely in this particular case
6. Damage that is not obvious and has maybe been repaired badly
7. Gross manufacturing defect. (In which case the previous owner must have known about it and sold it without telling.)

Hopefully the visit to the tech will confirm or rule out 5, 6 and 7.
And of course it could be a combination of things.
But number 1 seems the most probable, and it is the easiest to fix.
So it's definitely sandpaper and cork grease time. :sax:
 
D

Danielepaolo

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Thanks for putting this together
The possibilities that folk have come up with are:
1. Mouthpiece not pushed far enough onto the neck.

Seems most likely, confirmed by Borgani a possibility and the mouthpiece in the video posted by Greg (of Sarah Gallitz) above shows the mouthpiece on that Borgani (4:55 min) to be pushed further on so the mouthpiece is pushed on the way on.

This should easliy make up a semitone according to my son. I think he is kicking himself why he didn't go here straight away. He knew he had to get it on further but made assumption it was being played that way so it is how it should be. He will need to think about the way he looks at these things.

2. Neck not seated properly in the body - seems unlikely given that the player is very competent. But worth double-checking

That should get picked up a the technician if it is occurring

3. Neck too long. But the neck looks just like the one in @jbtsax picture, so it seems unlikely that it is the neck for a different sax.

It is also identical to the video posted above by Greg (of Sarah Gallitz)

4. Player problem - seems extremely unlikely given that the player is very competent, and his teacher has the same problem.

Given he didn't think of a straightforward way to fix issue with poorly fitting mouthpiece maybe he needs a reality check of his competancy (in setup anyway). Not sure why his teacher didn't say anything, maybe I need to question them as well.. Anyway, he better study that video above that JazzMatt has posted because I will be getting that wet and dry paper out of the garage.

5. Key heights - but this seems unlikely in this particular case

That should get picked up a the technician if it is occurring

6. Damage that is not obvious and has maybe been repaired badly

At this stage, this is the main reason why we need to get the instrument checked out given we purchased it online from overseas. Not always a good thing.

7. Gross manufacturing defect. (In which case the previous owner must have known about it and sold it without telling.)

This was one of his first thoughts although rightly it is last on your list and definitely most unlikely.

Hopefully the visit to the tech will confirm or rule out 5, 6 and 7.
And of course it could be a combination of things.
But number 1 seems the most probable, and it is the easiest to fix.

Agreed
So it's definitely sandpaper and cork grease time. :sax:

Agreed
 
JayeNM

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Posts #8 and #10 do ;)
Actually they did. See posts number 8 and 10. And the OP made clear in the original post that they are planning to take it to a tech.
Hence the concentration on things that they can do themselves.
Actually...sorry, gents maybe I wasn't clear in my semantics....

I wasn't just suggesting a trip to tech, I was suggesting the issue might be the keyheights....something which I don't think had been mentioned to that point :)

( I am curious,...as to why it has been noted that as 'unlikely'...because in fact when a horn plays flat or sharp...next to the mouthpiece location the keyheights would be the #2 thing I'd look at, usually....
and with due respect to Stephen and JBT.....adjusting keyheights can actually alter the pitch up and down of a horn by quite a significant amount; no, not a whole semitone...but quite a significant amount.
I have done this almost 100 times with horns which played flat or sharp...quite successfully and not resulting in 'stifling' the tone.
FWIW....this is really not an uncommon thing to address, particularly when some players also prefer high or low heights/action/feel and request adjustments be made in that respect.)
 
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Halfers

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Actually...sorry, gents maybe I wasn't clear in my semantics....

I wasn't just suggesting a trip to tech, I was suggesting the issue might be the keyheights....something which I don't think had been mentioned to that point :)

Apart from post #6 :)
 
Colin the Bear

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It's flat. Push in. I can't understand why a proclaimed teacher doesn't get this. Plenty of grease and the cork will compress. Push on with a twisting action. Sometimes it's easier to do it without the reed mounted. My tenor piece goes way past the cork.
 
jbtsax

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Actually...sorry, gents maybe I wasn't clear in my semantics....

I wasn't just suggesting a trip to tech, I was suggesting the issue might be the keyheights....something which I don't think had been mentioned to that point :)

( I am curious,...as to why it has been noted that as 'unlikely'...because in fact when a horn plays flat or sharp...next to the mouthpiece location the keyheights would be the #2 thing I'd look at, usually....
and with due respect to Stephen and JBT.....adjusting keyheights can actually alter the pitch up and down of a horn by quite a significant amount; no, not a whole semitone...but quite a significant amount.
I have done this almost 100 times with horns which played flat or sharp...quite successfully and not resulting in 'stifling' the tone.
FWIW....this is really not an uncommon thing to address, particularly when some players also prefer high or low heights/action/feel and request adjustments be made in that respect.)
What would "a significant amount" be in terms of cents?
 
Ivan

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maybe I wasn't clear in my semantics....
Does this help?

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