Beginners frustrations... sympathy/advice wanted!

[ian_uk1975]

Ok, I've now been practicing the sax for a little under 1 week and one thing I just can't seem to get right is my embouchure. I've had trouble getting the lower register (esp. low D/C) to sound without squeaking or introducing unwanted harmonics and have found a work-around by taking in more mouthpiece. Trouble is, with more mouthpiece, I find it impossible to use the octave key unless I SERIOUSLY lip-up or withdraw the mouthpiece specifically for the higher notes. Sometimes, I'll just be doodling around in the middle register and be thinking I'm in my safe zone when I'll start getting squeaks all of a sudden! It's becoming rather frustrating to say the least. I've tried innumerable combinations of lip shape, pressure and lung power, but just can't seem to find a 'sweet spot'. Originally, I started-out on a Rico 2 reed and have now stepped down to a Vandoren 1.5, but don't think it's had any significant impact.

One other strange thing I've noticed is that, when I do manage to get a half-decent low D or C, there are often harmonics in the tone that sound a bit like tremolo or chorus, even though I'm not moving my jaw at all!

Any suggestions or words of wisdom would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,
Ian.

 

[Linky Lee]

vandorean reeds are 1.5 size stronger than they say so it's the same as a rico 2, try a rico 1.5 if you want a weaker reed.

Sounds like your saxophone has some leaks. Have you had it serviced? is it brand new?

The lower register needs a loose embouchure as with all notes, but will cut off sooner if you tighten up. It takes time, and focussed guided practise. 1 week isn't going to get you playing consistently over two octaves or more!

I think I remember you saying you have a teacher, so they'll be able to give you some solid advice as they can see what you're actually doing. Book a double length lesson and ask him/her all those questions as there is only as much we can do online without seeing you play. He/She'll be able to give you specific solutions and various different ones to suit your playing style and requirements.

 

[ian_uk1975]

Linky_Lee,

I don't think the sax is at fault because the first thing my teacher did was to play-test it with his mouthpiece/reed. He just did a few scales and said it seemed fine (it certainly sounded ok to me too), so I think it's just my technique. The sax isn't new... it's 6 months old, according to the previous owner and in mint condition. It's a Stagg 77-SA, by the way and, according to my teacher, seems like a Selmer 'copy'.

At the moment, I'm finding a loose embouchure (where I'm applying next to no pressure with my bottom lip) is certainly conducive to the lower register, but doesn't work higher up. However, I've read that you should keep your embouchure the same for every note. At the moment, this seems impossible for me to achieve and I have to use three different embouchures... one for the upper register (with octave key depressed) that involves quite a bit of lower lip pressure on the reed and less mouthpiece, one for the middle register (the easiest notes to get consistently) and yet another embouchure (loose lips and more mouthpiece) for the lower register. Even using these 3 different embouchures, I can't get consistent notes... I either get squeaks, or jump an octave. These problems are almost exclusively prevalent when playing the lower or upper registers; the middle register is fine.

I'm having hour long lessons anyway, so I'll definitely mention this all to my teacher next week, but just wondered if you guys could impart any tips or words of wisdom in the meantime that might help.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Cheers,
Ian.

 

[Linky Lee]

ok, I'd take a stab at saying stick with your middle register embouchure and don't change it.

To get the higher register make an 'eee' sound, that's where your throat should be positioned. for the lower register make an 'ahh' sound. You'll notice the throat is completely open with an 'ahh' sound, this means you'll need lots more air to keep the sax going and the notes popping out.

Most saxophonists problems root back to air support which in turns roots to posture. Probably the must underestimated part of learning how to play sax. Make sure to ask your teacher about posture and as soon as you notice you're doing something wrong, stop doing it. We learn saxophone through muscle memory and it causes aggravation later on to un-learn and the learn something new.

Currently something I'm doing with a few aspects of my playing.

EDIT: the C key and below are often tricky on beginner saxophones as the keys can vary dramatically in height and you may have to start to close the C key before the F, E and D keys.
The keys could also not be seating properly which your teacher was blowing through, an experienced player can blow through small leaks without noticing problems though a beginner doesn't have the technique, air support and control to do the same.

I'd take it to a repair shop for a check over, even for brand new horns this is advisable. They'll also play with the keys to make it as smooth and comfortable as possible. It's not expensive either.

 

[jersey_mike]

Ian,
Have you played before? My first week I was lucky to get anything out of the horn, admittedly on a Rico 4 reed, but even after getting a Rico 1.5 it took quite awhile to get much below E on my tenor with any sort of regularity. Even now after playing awhile the 'safe keys' occasionally come out bad. It's just not nearly as much as in the past. It's easy to get frustrated playing the sax, but I've found that for me it becomes counterproductive to get down on myself too much. A good mental outlook while practicing is extremely important and I didn't have that when I was getting too frustrated.

Good luck in your new adventure.

Mike

 

[rudge]

Hi Ian, my advice would be to stop worrying about everything, you have been playing only one week! if you were learning to drive, speak another language, play a new sport etc then in one week you wouldnt expect to have got anywhere near being proficient, i have been playing around ten months now and am just starting to get some good sounds, albeit i am 45 with no prior musical knowleage.

the people on this site are great and will give you all the help you need, i say that from my own experience and the best advice i got at the start was dont try to run before you can walk, annoy your family and nieghbours with long note practice, squeaky notes and wierd renditions of greensleeves/swing low and suddenly, one day it will all come together.

enjoy it and dont get frustrated.

 

[ian_uk1975]

Ok guys... I've got it... be patient and practice, practice, practice. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

Encouraging to know that other people on here are mere mortals too and struggled equally in the beginning!

Cheers,
Ian.

 

[Linky Lee]

I'm still struggling! Though it's still the beginning as far as I'm concerned (2 years and a wee bit).

The thing with learning a musical instrument is that you are always struggling, the better you get the more you expect and the more you find that you should and can improve. I think that's great, and probably so does every other musician as it's great hitting those goals and the effort paying itself off, and then getting your head down for that next one. It's endless, you can always improve.

 

[jersey_mike]

if you're not struggling you're not learning anymore

 

[frank_johnson]

Hi Ian,
I've been playing for over a month now and I get frustrated too by
my inability to conquer the sloppy embouchure syndrome, which limits me to approx 35 mins. useful playing, before old socks seem to gather in the Bell!!!
Be patient: I've been playing guitar for 44 yrs. AND I STILL CAN'T KEEP UP WITH ALBERT LEE! :laugh:

 

[delboy1961]

Ian
Ive been learning for 5 months and my embouchure is very hit and miss.Some days it is good and some days I have to stop practise because its a waste of time.It is the most important thing so in a way it is good not to get complacent.....Good luck and keep playing whatever

 

[tengu01]

It's been a week dude. You have a teacher and the will to learn. The rest is chipping away until your body gradually learns how to do what you want it to..

If you want to improve your tone, Long tones are the way to go. They kill your embouchure, but they work like press-ups for the mouth. Long and slow as part of your routine. Strengthens your tone.

Start on middle G and semi-tone your way down. The sweet spot is there. If you can play low E but D warbles, longtone your way from E-Eb-D and back. Once you get it to sound steadily, remember how your embouchure and tongue are positioned.

My 2c

good luck 🙂

 

[darrell]

Ian,
Try this technique listed here:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Learning/tone_production.html

Basically, use the mouthpiece only and try to get a steady tone (A for the alto sax)

I noticed as I do these exercises, when I vary the pressure of the bottom lip, I can get notes from G to B. If you can consistently hold an "A" tone, then you probably have the right embouchure.

I'm just a beginner too, but this seemed to help me.

d

 

[Linky Lee]

yes, mouthpiece buzzing is a good thing to practise. Saxophonists in general don't do enough, brass players tend to do loads, though they 'need' better control.

Hopefully you'll get to the stage where you can produce a pitch range of about an octave, which will probably only mean around a semi-tone once you've put the saxophone on the end of it. Very useful in contemporary music.

 

[philthd]

ive been playing a long time, and on a bad day or after a lot of playing when my chops start to let me down i dont always hit a bottom note sweetly.

theres a reason most teachers and books for beginners stay in the G-C range for the first several lessons. bottom notes take control, technique and support that i would be incredibly impressed if anyone had after a week.

 

[pjmorris]

Hi All, I've had my sax for 3 months (today). I have a teacher once a week and practice every day work permitting. Up until about a week ago I couldn't make the C to D transition without a very annoying squeek, and in fact when making almost any transition requiring the octave key I got an annoying squeek before finding the right note. I fiddled with all sorts of things, new reeds, old reeds, the computer when bored - in fact anything i could think of. I dont know what I did, but it seems much better - I only had one or two squeeks in an hours instruction so I'm happy now.

The moral I think is patience and practice are the key issues.

Do have fun. PS I'm 50 on Sunday and was only ever able to play the cymbals badly when younger!!

PPS. does anyone know how to incorporate or use a metronome into practice, what with reading the notes, playing the one I'm on and thinking what comes next, counting beats is somewhat hit and miss. (Actually i think the metronome deliberately gets out of step with me to annoy me!).

 

[Rogerb]

I had a C>D squeak and my teacher found that the octave key wasn't adjusted quite correctly.... on my SA-5 the pad should be about 5mm above the hole when open.

A bit of careful bending of the key arm solved it, and it was checked later at Hanson.

Just a thought.

 

[Linky Lee]

If you want to play along with a metronome you almost have to forget about it and 'feel' the beat.

This is why backing tracks are very good because it's related music, not just click... click... or even worse bleep... bleep...

You obviously can't get a backing track to everything so you do need to be able to use a metronome.

I find that playing scales to the metronome helps for this as well as includes some intonation practise and when relatively new to the saxophone, helps to familiarize.

Start of slowly, around 70bpm and play a nice easy scale for every click, then play two notes per click, three notes per click and four notes per click. You then want to speed it up to a faster speed like 100bpm. This is where the interesting bit occurs.
First play one note to a click. Next slow the metronome to 50bpm and play two notes to a click. It's the same tempo but it clicks only half as much meaning you have to split the click into two even beats. Then slow it to 25bpm and now it's just giving you the beginnings of each bar. So now you have to keep your own time and it will tell you where the bars are.

Once you're comfortable you can apply licks and sections of music to this as well. Ideally you'll practise with a metronome prividing the bar only. I find this is the best way to improve your inner timing, yet still learn how to play to other sounds. It's not too obtrusive that way either.

Hope that helps. Experiment and see what works for you.

 

[ochaye_mckay]

Those sound like really good tips on metronome use Linky. I'l cerainly give them a try.

Dave

 

[Linky Lee]

That's what the forum is for!

I've worked out my methods that work from me by asking the same questions and reading other peoples questions.

It's a combination of about 10 different people's ideas to arrive at one final product that I think is efficient and challenging at the same time. It's also a lot less annoying than hearing a metronome all the time. I can't stand the sound of a metronome even if it's a piano or another instrument. It's just so monotonous even when it uses two tones 😛