Teaching An exercise to help improve your "time"

[jbtsax]

Playing in good "time" is something we have all struggled with at one time or another in our musical development. My favorite saying that "slow music is much harder than fast music" bears this out. I have put on my "teacher's cap" and made a quick recorded tutorial of an exercise I used to use with my students to help them to develop a good sense of "time" in their playing, which is especially important in jazz. Your comments or suggestions are welcome.

https://soundcloud.com/jbtsax%2Fps-i-love-you-playing-in-time-tutorial

 

[Jeanette]

That sounds like a great exercise and very difficult

Jx

 

[Tenor Viol]

Yes, very interesting. I've had bowing exercises before today that do simialr things

 

[nigeld]

My teacher often includes a metronome in exercises like this.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Ouch...my tongue is hanging out at the thought of it....I have to say I admire greatly those who have the skill set to teach beginning to intermediates music.

As so many have said, the music is in the spaces between the notes. Vic Wooten told me to "never lose the groove to find a note" Several great improvisational musicians have said rhythm is more important than melody. Bird and others could get way loose with time and come back right on the money after going way outside the box timewise.

This all comes down to having a good fundamental feel for time. Great exercise IMO.

 

[jbtsax]

That sounds like a great exercise and very difficult

Jx

Like anything else, it can be done in shorter segments---say 2 or 4 measures at a time. At first it might be helpful to take the lead sheet and to write in the triplets to see visually where they fall. The most common mistakes made by less experienced players is to rush some of the notes and rhythms, and to not allow enough time in the rests. Once the underlying pulse is "internalized" these problems seem to disappear.

 

[Jeanette]

Like anything else, it can be done in shorter segments---say 2 or 4 measures at a time.

I should have a go at this, I'll download it later from the thread 🙂

Jx

 

[Guenne]

Thanks @jbtsax ,

for putting this together.
There is a similar idea in the youtube video "Inside the Bigband" (6:55):

Almost any of the metronome apps can give you the subdivisions too.

Cheers and thanks again, Guenne

 

[brianr]

John, great idea for a thread.

I also feel that rhythm development is not given nearly enough attention in the early stages of sax playing.

Rhythm awareness can be taught, and I agree with you John when you talk about hearing and feeling the underlying sub division of the beat,

But with much respect to you John, and your concept, (which I like ) I feel it is not for early stage players.

i feel there is more basic stuff to be acquired before getting to that.
I think its great, especially for intermediate players who already have basic rhythm ideas together. But not for all. I feel its essential that folks dont jump into too complex stuff too early.

I feel the basic stuff involves developing an ability to feel a regular pulse and then be able to sub divide that into whatever you want/need.

So, a very basic idea that I feel is a minimum and that everyone should be able to do is :

Tap your foot and play crotchets in time with the foot tap.
Pick any note on the sax ie one note per beat/tap.
Count inside your head as you do. 1, 2, 3, 4.....1, 2, 3, 4. Etc etc

This sounds easy but there are folks who cant do this. Until you can, forget all other rhythm studies. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If totally secure with that already, or when you become so, then move to two notes per beat, then 3 notes per beat, then 4 notes per beat.

that will be sufficient for the moment. (ie more complicated stuff can wait)
But do feel comfortable on 1s 2s 3s and 4s per beat before moving to more complicated stuff.

The big thing is to keep the foot tap solid. It doesnt mimic the amount of notes per beat. That is the constant, steady as a rock beat that you play off. it is immovable.
Sometimes folks start tapping the sub divisions with the foot.... DONT.
You are trying to develop the rock stead underlying pulse.

It can sometimes help to use words which have the correct amount of syllables in them.

So 2 notes per beat is DADDY
3 notes is MERRILY
4 notes is TA FA TI FI. ( ok, its a not a proper word. Who cares, it is 4 short syllables and serves a purpose. Go with it!! )

Johns idea is based around the ability to subdivide beats into triplets.
If you can already comfortably do that, great. Go and try Johns idea above
Im suggesting to those who cant already do subdividing into triplets on one note, Johns idea is possibly too much for you, too soon. ( as good as it is)

There is a more basic way to get this triplet idea together.

Once you have the single note idea together and really comfortable, move up a stage

Use it on a scale. So, for example; 3 notes for each degree of the scale.
So, tap foot and play 3 notes C on 1st foot tap. Then 3 D's on next tap etc etc
Think "merrily" on each beat. All the way up and down for 1 octave

Once you have that secure and you want more of a challenge, change it slightly.
Still playing 3 of the same note on each beat/foot tap, but now slur from the 3rd note of each beat up onto the next note.
So, you are slurring from the 3rd C on to the first D.

Sounds complicated. It isnt

So, tongue the first 2 Cs then tongue the 3rd C but slur on to the next note D. Then tongue what is the 2nd D. then tongue the 3rd D which slurs up to the E. etc etc

The important thing is that the foot tap is in the same place. it remains on the first of each group of 3

it is still the same 3 notes in the same place in the beat, but the feel will be different.

It is actually replicating the triplet feel that Johns initial post is dealing with.

i have talked here about doing this without a metronome. that is a whole different thread, but the metronome use is something to be aimed for eventually.

 

[jbtsax]

@brianr Your point is well taken that the underlying triplet feeling of playing swing or jazz eighth notes (quavers) needs to have a foundation before it is attempted.

Your post reminded me of two more ideas I have used in my teaching. From the very beginning with my band students as part of their daily warm-up, I would tap a beat on the music stand with my baton or turn on an amplified metronome. Then by the number of fingers I would hold up, the students would tongue one note per tap, two notes per tap, three notes per tap, and so on. Once they caught on I would increase the tempo to also make it a tonguing exercise. By the time their method book introduced eighth notes (quavers) I would simply say they are like holding up 2 fingers, when triplets were introduced, 3 fingers, when sixteenth notes were introduced (semi quavers) 4 fingers. Names of pies are also useful to teach note groupings: Peach, Ap-ple, Blue-ber-ry, Boy-sen-ber-ry. Five note groupings are also easy by thinking (saying) U-ni-ver-si-ty.

The second idea is called breath impulse which is useful in teaching students to hold long notes their full value.

• A quarter note (crotchet) is played tu-oo
• A half note (minim) is played tu-oo-oo-oo
• A dotted half note (minim) is played tu-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo
• A whole note (semibreve) is played tu-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo

Breath impulse can also be useful to teach "swing" eighth notes (quavers):

du-oo-du du-oo-du du-oo-du du-oo-du

 

[brianr]

@brianr Your point is well taken that the underlying triplet feeling of playing swing or jazz eighth notes (quavers) needs to have a foundation before it is attempted.

Your post reminded me of two more ideas I have used in my teaching. From the very beginning with my band students as part of their daily warm-up, I would tap a beat on the music stand with my baton or turn on an amplified metronome. Then by the number of fingers I would hold up, the students would tongue one note per tap, two notes per tap, three notes per tap, and so on. Once they caught on I would increase the tempo to also make it a tonguing exercise. By the time their method book introduced eighth notes (quavers) I would simply say they are like holding up 2 fingers, when triplets were introduced, 3 fingers, when sixteenth notes were introduced (semi quavers) 4 fingers. Names of pies are also useful to teach note groupings: Peach, Ap-ple, Blue-ber-ry, Boy-sen-ber-ry. Five note groupings are also easy by thinking (saying) U-ni-ver-si-ty.

The second idea is called breath impulse which is useful in teaching students to hold long notes their full value.

• A quarter note (crotchet) is played tu-oo
• A half note (minim) is played tu-oo-oo-oo
• A dotted half note (minim) is played tu-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo
• A whole note (semibreve) is played tu-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo

Breath impulse can also be useful to teach "swing" eighth notes (quavers):

du-oo-du du-oo-du du-oo-du du-oo-du

some good ideas there John. I like the fruit pies idea in relation to number of syllables.

I use "hippopotamus" for 5, (luckily spelling isnt important ) but whatever works for the individual is fine.
University works well.

however, i wasnt going to get into numbers above 4. I dont want to confuse.

I feel that for folks in the early stages of getting rhythm stuff together, it is sufficient to get 1s 2s 3s and 4s together and comfortable,before going into more complicated stuff.

 

[BigMartin]

I find the problem with using words to subdivide beats is that I don't tend to say those words in normal speech with equal-length syllables. Blueberry, for instance has a long "Blue-" and a very short "-ry". So I have to modify my speech to make it work, but then what's the point?

 

[brianr]

I find the problem with using words to subdivide beats is that I don't tend to say those words in normal speech with equal-length syllables. Blueberry, for instance has a long "Blue-" and a very short "-ry". So I have to modify my speech to make it work, but then what's the point?

Its just a tool to get someone comfortable. its up to the individual to even them out in practice.
We are looking for an evenness of whatever sub division is being worked on.
Make yourself say them with equal syllable length.
so, be careful that 3 notes doesnt come out as a quaver then 2 semi quavers, for example.

this stuff can be practiced away from the sax. Anywhere.
the more familiar it becomes the better. repetition is your friend.

walking down the street is good. pick a sub division and say it to the beat of your walk.
I suggest not saying "merrily merrily merrily" out loud. people stare !!!

eventually, after much work, it becomes second nature and the words are forgotten.

i dont use them now, but I remember when they were very useful in getting this stuff together .

For example, I was taught Ta Fa Ti Fi, and that worked great.
But I know some folks use : 1 ee an ah, two ee an ah, 3 ee an ah, 4 ee an ah. this for 4/semi quavers.

it doesnt matter what you use. even them out and adopt the principle.
It does work and will be hugely beneficial to anyone who hasnt previously delt with rhythmic issues

 

[BigMartin]

Make yourself say them with equal syllable length.
so, be careful that 3 notes doesnt come out as a quaver then 2 semi quavers, for example.

It's something I've worked on a fair bit anyway. But I don't see how the syllables are helping if you have to make yourself say them equally.. It seems kind of circular, in that if I can do that then I've already got the rhythm down.

 

[jbtsax]

It's something I've worked on a fair bit anyway. But I don't see how the syllables are helping if you have to make yourself say them equally.. It seems kind of circular, in that if I can do that then I've already got the rhythm down.

You say "po-TAH-to", I say po-TAY-to". Let's call the whole thing off. 🙂 Seriously in "Ameri-speak" blueberry has close to the same length and stress on each syllable. The "pies" are just a fun way to convey the divisions of the beat to young players. They don't "overthink" it like some adults do". 😉

 

[Targa]

 

[brianr]

It's something I've worked on a fair bit anyway. But I don't see how the syllables are helping if you have to make yourself say them equally.. It seems kind of circular, in that if I can do that then I've already got the rhythm down.

its just a way in. it opens the door. whatever we want to call it.

it works.

of course, it needs to be explained that it needs to be evened out. but in my experience, everyone Ive ever taught it to, gets the idea and it helps.

It is not a lifetime thing. its a temporary thing to open a door.

if someone can get the principle of sub division whilst maintaining a steady beat/pulse, without using words with appropriate numbers of syllables.... great. there can be no argument about that.

if not, this will probably help.

like all aspects of this music malarky, there are lots of ways to get to the same place.

 

[jbtsax]

And for 50 points, what march did this group malign in making this silly song?

 

[Targa]

And for 50 points, what march did this group malign in making this silly song?

That's easy, but did you know that the lyrics were adapted from 'The Rhubarb Tart of Omar Kayyam' first published in 'The Washington Post'.

 

[jbtsax]

That's easy, but did you know that the lyrics were adapted from 'The Rhubarb Tart of Omar Kayyam' first published in 'The Washington Post'.

I could have gone to my grave without knowing that. How ever can I thank you? By the way did you know John Phillip Sousa invented the "be-bop" scale?