Reeds Am I just being lazy?

[Zasterz]

I find if you can do this it's very useful. The best way to get a more versatile sound.

Could you elaborate? What’s the benefit of taking in less mouthpiece? I feel like I often see people advising to take more.

 

[Dr G]

Could you elaborate? What’s the benefit of taking in less mouthpiece? I feel like I often see people advising to take more.

Phil Barone was among those always advocating “take in more mouthpiece”. After a while of doing that, the next swing of the ol’ pendulum must to “take in less mouthpiece”. I advocate taking in just enough mouthpiece to do the job right.

 

[Dr G]

If that was too flippant for some, I urge the casual player to LISTEN to your sound while you play. Make adjustments, and learn their consequences. You can learn sooooo much by just listening.

 

[Zasterz]

If that was too flippant for some, I urge the casual player to LISTEN to your sound while you play. Make adjustments, and learn their consequences. You can learn sooooo much by just listening.

Already do this, just trying to understand Pete’s take on it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Could you elaborate? What’s the benefit of taking in less mouthpiece? I feel like I often see people advising to take more.

Already do this, just trying to understand Pete’s take on it.

It’s based purely on experience. The more mouthpiece I take in the less I find I am able to shape the sound to what I want. I find it easier when switching to subtone and back or growl on and off.

I also noticed it when I used to teach, which was mostly university students. Many were very skilled in fingering technique but not so much in sound technique and very often it was improved enormously when I realised they had been taught to take in a lot of mouthpiece. Reducing that improved their sound and also solved some issues specific to certain notes.

People say take in more based on an erroneous assumption the reed has to be free to vibrate more/better. But if you think about it the more you take in the closer you get to a bagpipe where there is no lip on the reed at all. So the lip doesn’t seem to muffle the sound, but seems to allow more control.

I rarely experienced a bad sound from taking in very little and in a few cases it did benefit them to try taking more.

But it was common to hear a lot of bad and uncontrolled sound from taking in a lot and these students improved both to my ears and to theirs when they adjusted.

But at the end of the day the best thing is not necessarily either extreme but just the right amount.

Phil Barone was among those always advocating “take in more mouthpiece”

I consider it best to base advice on individual players rather than blanket statements, but also to back it up by demonstrating yourself. I never heard Phil Barone play so can’t really comment much on his qualification to teach or advise.

 

[Digger2054]

But if you think about it the more you take in the closer you get to a bagpipe where there is no lip on the reed at all.

I can see the logic, and provides theres cushioning if the reed, no biting the reed will still vibrate.

I've seen some use the term "resistance" when talking harder reeds. Harder reed, more resistance.

What 'resistance' are they talking of, as I find a harder reed (once it's vibrating) as free blowing, if not more as a softer reed, but take more to initially get it going.

In my mind all the talk of resistance I was thinking of a back pressure resistance, less free blowing, but maybe they're referring to something else.

 

[Pete Effamy]

In my mind all the talk of resistance I was thinking of a back pressure resistance, less free blowing, but maybe they're referring to something else.

Yes, it feels like you're pushing against something - a resistance.

"Open" / "free-blowing" feels like the notes start as soon as you put air into the mouthpiece. First thought might be that this is much easier, but the control falls 100% on the breathing technique - more like a flute - and it's something that doesn't suit all players.

With "resistance", you feel like you can feel where the notes are about to start, if that makes any sense.

Think of this:

If you had to push something with your hand, the "open / free blowing" version would move the object as soon as you put the weight of your hand onto it. With the resistance setup, you put your hand on the object and it will only move when you apply pressure / push.

 

[Pete Effamy]

About a year or so ago I changed my embouchure to that of having less in my mouth. I do prefer it on tenor and alto, not so sure about soprano and clarinet. For me, I prefer the sound, especially when blowing hard. I think I get more brightness too, something that I've always struggled with - I naturally round off all edges and make a big, full sound, as taught classically.

The science of it doesn't make any sense at all to me. Apply pressure to the reed (where your lower lip is) and it feels like you're just closing the mouthpiece facing to where you now are - ie a shorter facing. I always presumed that you maximise whatever facing your mouthpiece has, or it's not for you and you get a mouthpiece with a shorter facing.

Thing is though, it worked for me. You have to be a player who keeps your jaw open and not bite in any way, as it will be worse. As for @Pete Thomas belief that he has more control with less mouthpiece in - I can certainly say that I don't disagree at all, and maybe I'd lean that way too. Not experimented too much back and forth, just found that I preferred it and stuck with it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I do prefer it on tenor and alto, not so sure about soprano and clarinet.

#Me too.

In fact I think on baritone is where I take the least.

The more mouthpiece I take in the less I find I am able to shape the sound to what I want.

I appreciate not everyone needs or wants much versatility of sound. It all depends on the variety of genres you asked to or want to play. There are many players who just do one specific genre and that's it.

 

[pablop]

Reed strength is not all there is to the thin sound in the higher notes and the chirping on tenor I think.
I found that the thin sound on higher notes was improved with my throat and lowering my jaw, having my throat in "yawn" opening has helped my tone production over the whole register.
Breath support becomes more evident while having this embochure/throat combination and my tone opened up quite a bit.

The exercise that has worked best for me in the tone improving department is practicing overtones with interval jumps while checking the tuner, I found some overtones only ring when played in tune, a small slip and they choke.

Reed and Mouthpiece are related too I found. I have settled on 7* for tenor. Playing on 2 1/2 reeds now and working my way back to 2 Hard so I can control high notes better.

 

[Digger2054]

If you had to push something with your hand, the "open / free blowing" version would move the object as soon as you put the weight of your hand onto it. With the resistance setup, you put your hand on the object and it will only move when you apply pressure / push.

In my mind that sounds more like what some would describe as 'responsive'.

Imagine pulling said object with a rope, one is slack ,the other is taught, the one that is taught would move before the slack one. A lighter reed could be more 'responsive' as there's less mass to shift? That said a harder reed can still be responsive once you've a feel for where it starts - Like a clutch in a car.

In my mind resistance would be like comaring blowing through a hosepipe, compared to a 4" drain pipe.

(Not being argumentive just interesting how different people interpret it)

throat and lowering my jaw

My teacher has said to me previously (on my Alto) that my bottom teeth are too close to the reed, perhaps a conscious effort to lower the jaw is order. Agree on the throat, as I can achieve a bigger, fuller sound with a more open throat.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Imagine pulling said object with a rope, one is slack ,the other is taught, the one that is taught would move before the slack one.

But in this analogy you’d have the equivalent of nothing happening when you “started” the note - taking up the slack in the rope. This is not the case - both types of setup respond instantly: embouchure and air are set as if already playing, just awaiting the tongue to be removed from the reed.

 

[skeller047]

I feel resistance from a too hard reed as a lot of effort required to get the horn sounding, and a lot of air required to keep the reed vibrating. Not enough support, and/or air too slow equals no sound at all. It also makes it difficult to play softly.

The upside is that a harder reed will generally make it easier to play with power and volume, the reed won’t choke or distort when putting a lot of air through. One has to find a balance…

 

[lydian]

It's not rocket science. Lip should go roughly where the facing curve breaks away from the reed. Too far past that (taking in more) results in a harsh, uncontrolled tone, akin to a duck. Too close to the tip (taking in less) results in a weak, dampened tone. The sweet spot is somewhere between those extremes. New players have a tendency to take in too little, hence the advice to take in more. It's pretty obvious to me if a player has taken in too little or too much. I imagine most teachers can immediately tell too.

An average jazz player probably takes in more than a classical player to get more volume and dampen with the softer part of the lip. A classical player might take in less, but having an embouchure where the lip contact area is thinner, it works out. So use the facing break to get in the ballpark, then your ears to find the exact spot.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The resistance thing is merely preference. My clarinet professor at college had been brought up on Boosey 1010’s, which blow very freely with their usual “matched” mouthpiece.

For some reason, he thought he might like to join the trend of the ‘80’s and get a Buffet R13 / RC, which many would play with more / some resistance.

It was uncommon for him to play that way (and me on his 1010) so he gave up on that idea.

I echo what @lydian says about the extremes - too far on and you’ll soon know, and yes, (way) too little and the sound will be tiny and weak.

As ever; compare / contrast, ask others, follow your ears.

 

[Digger2054]

Had my lesson this evening, seems to be combination of things.

First thing I did was hand my teacher my horn and he commented that it's "a brilliant tenor" but he wasn't keen on the mouthpiece.

Naturally he enquired why, and I explained that I was still struggling with upper register (particularly A) he played again and had no complaints beyond the mouthpiece, but highlighted it proved regardless of set up he still sounded the same.

He understood the change to a 2.5 reed, but I still having issues, so lots of experimenting whilst he studied what was happening.

I need to drop my jaw a little, and work on my embochure We tried a different mouthpiece, and I still had issues so it's most certainly me.

We spent a bit of time working in these on my original mouthpiece, including overtones, some weren't very forthcoming, and he suspects the mouthpiece might be too open.

It's a refaced Link 6* (.100"), I have a T6L (also .100") that I leant to friend so i'll give a go of and see if that's better, failing that I'll be on the look out for a narrower tip piece.

 

[Dr G]

Thanks for sharing the feedback notes from your instructor.

Did you talk about whether it would be beneficial for you to stick with one horn until you get your embouchure and sound production sorted out?

 

[Digger2054]

Thanks for sharing the feedback notes from your instructor.

Did you talk about whether it would be beneficial for you to stick with one horn until you get your embouchure and sound production sorted out?

My teacher is a tenor player, so I practice mostly on my Tenor... I play Bari in the orchestra I, occasionally I pick up the Alto for a change, and even more rarely & if nobody else will (they don't), I end up looking like a t-rex brandishing my curved soprano 🤣

The issue seems more prominent on Tenor, I'm quite happy with the Alto & Bari, I'm sure the work on the Tenor will benefit those too.

I'm really hoping the V16 is more suitable with a bit of work.

 

[Colin the Bear]

With the new Borg saxophone system, resistance is futile as your distinctiveness is added.

 

[Digger2054]

My neighbours will be delighted with this morning's practice.

High A has been the most noticeable 'issue' and my tutor had me playing the A, then Finger a D and see if I could hold the A whilst doing so.

I just couldn't do it in my lesson, but I've a few successes today, far from consistent.

I've been focussing lowering my jaw, relaxing my embochure with as little pressure on the reed, naturally the tuning went flat, so mouthpiece pushed on further.

I was playing a few tunes I know from memory and stopping on random notes and checking the tuner, the intonation seems much better, and there sound is much bigger.

It's far from 'fixed' but I appear to be heading in the right direction, and hopefully it will start to feel more natural.

Out of curiosity I picked up the Alto and tried the same there, had to wind the micro tuner in some way, and similar results, I was quite happy with my alto sound... God help everyone at Mondays rehearsal if I try it on the Bari 🤣