Tech/maintenance A general thread on DIY repair

[turf3]

You have an interesting horn. That pinky table configuration started with Comm 1 and 1936 date. Best I know, none have the extra barrel roller on Bb ( a two roller Bb). Could be a tech done upgrade ?
Lots of small clues to review / look for on yours.
The forked E ( it works from E) cup IMHO didn’t exist after 1930.
The LH pinky table configuration started in 1936.
Around 1927-28 the LH palm keys changed. A pillar stop changed to foot cast into key.
Martin continued making the HC as stencil for years. The Indiana is the same horn.


The Martin Story site recently disappeared 😢
Still our member @nigeld has a very informative thread here.

Saxophones - Martin Indiana Saxophones - History and Models

Martin Indiana Saxophones Part 1 - The Indiana Band Instrument Company I have been trying to learn more about Martin Indiana saxophones recently. The Indiana was the brand name for Martin’s second-line instruments. I thought I would write down what I have found out. None of this information...

cafesaxophone.com

No, the configuration shown is NOT characteristic of Comm 1 - note that the Comm 1 has an extension of the C# key that provides a direct slide path to the Bb. This modification seems minor but it requires repositioning of the posts and a redesign of the key arm locations.

 

[PigSquealer]

And on that subject, I didn't even look at the watch stuff, it would get me down too much. My eyes are poor - two pairs of glasses needed for detail things, and that gives such crap depth of field (and my memory of putting things down is so poor) that I spent more time groping around the bench searching for things than I do working. Teeny tiny stuff is not for me - I don't want to get much smaller than a pivot screw.

The Clickspring YouTube channel is loaded with high quality machining techniques. Small parts and making the tools. I follow several restoration channels of big goods. Tanks & locomotives.
All just food for thought.

 

[PigSquealer]

No, the configuration shown is NOT characteristic of Comm 1 - note that the Comm 1 has an extension of the C# key that provides a direct slide path to the Bb. This modification seems minor but it requires repositioning of the posts and a redesign of the key arm locations.

View attachment 35716

That’s correct. The configuration began with Comm 1 as you show. Exactly as the OP has. No !

The pre Typewriter era ended with this layout.

No need to post a Typewriter.
Next was the Troubadour, Standard and Imperial with this below layout.

So the configuration began with the Comm 1.

 

[mark_addy]

I

You have an interesting horn. That pinky table configuration started with Comm 1 and 1936 date. Best I know, none have the extra barrel roller on Bb ( a two roller Bb). Could be a tech done upgrade ?
Lots of small clues to review / look for on yours.
The forked E ( it works from E) cup IMHO didn’t exist after 1930.
The LH pinky table configuration started in 1936.
Around 1927-28 the LH palm keys changed. A pillar stop changed to foot cast into key.
Martin continued making the HC as stencil for years. The Indiana is the same horn.


The Martin Story site recently disappeared 😢
Still our member @nigeld has a very informative thread here.

Saxophones - Martin Indiana Saxophones - History and Models

Martin Indiana Saxophones Part 1 - The Indiana Band Instrument Company I have been trying to learn more about Martin Indiana saxophones recently. The Indiana was the brand name for Martin’s second-line instruments. I thought I would write down what I have found out. None of this information...

cafesaxophone.com

Nigel suggests Indiana stencils based on a split bell key layout ran up to 1938-ish. And you've clarified that Comm 1 starts in 1936; 'Lewin' altos (I have seen pics of several now - I linked one up the thread a bit - they are all the same, little roller and all) all have a Comm 1 low Bb key and (looking at your own nicely labelled line-up of Martin altos further up) also the Comm 1 C and D# on the same rod (I wrongly thought this was a comm 2 thing, up a bit). I don't think the firm would have done anything very special for a London stencil importer, so they are probably 'Indianas' with a different name on the bell.

I could see the Comm 1 Bb key going on the stencil 'because it could' and because going 'all the way across' to Bb was perhaps starting to be a necessary feature on a sax if you wanted to sell it new in 1936-38. And I could see the Comm 1 low C and D# arrangement going on the cheaper instrument because it looks cheaper to make than that on the early split bell handcraft. It seems unlikely (according to Nigel) that they made split bell stencils after the war. So all this conjecture seems to date it to 8-10 years younger than it might have been had it been a late 'Martin' instrument; just before the war.

Thanks for your interest, folks. Business cannot have been too brisk in mid-late 30s London - but perhaps that's why Lewin (HQ just up the road from Selmer) thought there was money to be made in cheaper instruments, and perhaps why Martin were happy to supply them.

Edit - 2 more on UK ebay at the moment. One just the same as mine (little roller on Bb and all), but silver plate. And this , which is still split bell keys, still looks like it has Comm1 bits on as discussed above (photos a little obscure), but where the fork Eb has moved around to the front of the lower stack - apparently this last feature appeared on the Handcraft Imperial of '33-'35. I wonder if @nigeld is still around and has any comments to make regarding a comparison with 'Indiana' badged horns.

It's fun to imagine a story around all this. Great depression, need sales, 'Oh G*d, what do those Limeys want on their cheap horn now?' 🙂

 

[PigSquealer]

Just study all the bits and timeline. You’ll get close to a date, but not exact. The forked E and pinky table adds confusion to dating. I don’t recall any maker with forked E after 1940. The Indiana was produced until the very end around early to mid 1960’s.
This below plays equally to all my other vintage Martins.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/martin-indiana-alto-diy-full-repad-service.395436/?nested_view=1

Yanagiswa bought all the rights to Martin prior to 1970. No wonder Yani’s are great !

 

[turf3]

Just study all the bits and timeline. You’ll get close to a date, but not exact. The forked E and pinky table adds confusion to dating. I don’t recall any maker with forked E after 1940. The Indiana was produced until the very end around early to mid 1960’s.
This below plays equally to all my other vintage Martins.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/martin-indiana-alto-diy-full-repad-service.395436/?nested_view=1

Yanagiswa bought all the rights to Martin prior to 1970. No wonder Yani’s are great !

Actually, Conn and King Zephyr baritones retained fork Eb well into the 50s, maybe into the 60s. These are not the back side fork Eb, though.

 

[Woodpad]

Actually, Conn and King Zephyr baritones retained fork Eb well into the 50s, maybe into the 60s. These are not the back side fork Eb, though.

My Conn bari from 1970 has this fork between D and E. No M number surprisingly. Was sold as military used instrument..

 

[mark_addy]

View attachment 35712

I wonder if anyone can tell me whether key arms tend to be hard, or soft-soldered onto barrels? I like this instrument, and there is room to do something about that C# (make 'long' one like the Conn baritone design which was pictured up-thread with 2 rollers on it one above the other). There's quite enough room around the existing one to accomodate that, I think. It it were hard-soldered onto the barrel I could imagine bending it down and then filing it down a bit and soft soldering a new key on top. If soft, starting again with everything off that end of the barrel might make more sense.

 

[PigSquealer]

I wonder if anyone can tell me whether key arms tend to be hard, or soft-soldered onto barrels?

Everything on a key is hard soldered. Some pearl holders.
Pillars, posts, reciever, body-bow- bell joints, crook & sockets soft solder.

 

[turf3]

Correct practice is that all the components of a key are hard-soldered (brazed) together. That said, I have used soft solder for various key mods many times and have never had any trouble. But the key to a strong soft-solder joint (aside of course from immaculate cleanliness) is to have an extremely close fit. Start relying on soft solder to fill voids and you lose strength. I've got some soft soldered joints that are going on 40 years of constant use and still strong. Thing is, by the time you get the key components up to full heat for hard soldering, you've trashed the plating, discolored everything, and you've got to re-polish the whole end of the key.

 

[mark_addy]

Thanks both, that was kind-of where I was going in my head. Found a useful small lump of brass today...I don't think I'll post more on this until I'm a way on with it!

 

[mark_addy]

A test to see if I can not only remember how to use a spreadsheet (don't ask me what order polynomial curve fits I am using, because I don't know), but also manage to import a graph...the facing curves are taken from the website @PigSquealer linked to, and I am working up to measuring mine when I can locate a less bendy 6" rule. I have some really awful mouthpieces to experiment on. Let's see if I can make them worse.

 

[skeller047]

If you want to understand the curves, you will have to convert the units on either the X or Y axis, as your graph compares inches to half-millimeters. Then you need to do some math to see what kind of curve the points are on. Or have the spreadsheet do it for you…

It seems the only glass gauge widely available these days is the one made by Theo Wanne. If you don’t have feeler gauges, then you might consider buying their refacing kit.

Warning - mouthpiece work is a very deep rabbit hole. Ask me how I know…

 

[Colin the Bear]

You're a rabbit? 🥕🐰

 

[PigSquealer]

View attachment 36008


A test to see if I can not only remember how to use a spreadsheet (don't ask me what order polynomial curve fits I am using, because I don't know), but also manage to import a graph...the facing curves are taken from the website @PigSquealer linked to, and I am working up to measuring mine when I can locate a less bendy 6" rule. I have some really awful mouthpieces to experiment on. Let's see if I can make them worse.

Either it’s raining & snowing in July (cabin fever) or you need to try smoking crack 🤪.
Still there’s nothing wrong with seeking to learn new things 😉
I look forward to your reporting back…..and the carnage pictures 🤣

 

[mark_addy]

I have 'my' alto mouthpiece which I like, to measure (and which I'm not going anywhere near with anything more abrasive than a feeler gauge). Then I have an old HR thing which someone has already been at; at 0.0015 the curve starts at 46 (R) and 62 (L) and the tip doesn't look very happy either - so I have no worries about having a go there. Then 2 Chinese pieces at £5 and £10 delivered respectively, a 'Bari' branded NOS piece in a box which was £15 delivered because I thought it would be instructive to measure a 'new' general-purpose student piece, and a Weltklang item which someone has done quite a lot to and which plays actually OK. So, we'll see.

When my less-bendy rule turns up I want to measure everything; next step is to try a vernier travelling microscope base, small cast iron surface plate, DTI on a magnetic stand, and see if I can map them out an easier way than with feelers. There might be too much spring in the DTI base, or too much hassle setting it all up paralell to start, but we'll see. After all that, it's time to be more abrasive.

@skeller047 , I appreciate your horror at my mixed units (that's rather a European perspective, don't you think? 😎 ). If I were to attempt some curve fits - and notwithstanding my 'joke' about polynomials, it's smooth and I bet a 2nd order fit would do it - I guess I could try to originate some 'curves-in-the-style-of'. But all I want to try to start with is to turn a £5 pale blue ABS Chinese thing into a 'short-shank-Selmer-soloist-E' (which is in my hand - OK, it's a bit green and has chewy marks in the beak from before my bridge fell out). How hard could that be? 🙂

 

[PigSquealer]

The worst that can happen is you end up with an average C Mel mouthpiece 🤪.
If you’re going to give an odd plastic mouthpiece a full lobotomy. It’s worth asking the local brain surgeon.
@LostCircuits has talent in both. A good cook, mountain bicyclist and disc golf player too.

 

[PigSquealer]

@mark_addy , grrrrrr. I can’t find part one of the “Hot rodding a Selmer Goldentone mouthpiece” I posted. It would be good for your followers to read and know what you’re attempting.
Meanwhile, here’s part 2

Stuff Sax

Stuff about saxophones. This gives me a place to post saxophone information based on things that I mess around with, experiment with, modify, break, fix, ruin, etc. WARNING: May contain some non-sax information. But it will contain information on saxophone repair, saxophone refinishing...

stuffsax.blogspot.com

 

[mark_addy]

@mark_addy , grrrrrr. I can’t find part one of the “Hot rodding a Selmer Goldentone mouthpiece” I posted. It would be good for your followers to read and know what you’re attempting.
Meanwhile, here’s part 2

Stuff Sax

Stuff about saxophones. This gives me a place to post saxophone information based on things that I mess around with, experiment with, modify, break, fix, ruin, etc. WARNING: May contain some non-sax information. But it will contain information on saxophone repair, saxophone refinishing...

stuffsax.blogspot.com

I think Part 1 follwos straight on from Part 2 (!) in the link you posted here. Or you can find it from the link you posted in one of the last contributions to the 'What alto piece do you use?' Poll Thread which was fairly recent. All good stuff - thanks for posting it again here, it does make more sense of what might be about to happen next 🙂

 

[skeller047]

…
@skeller047 , I appreciate your horror at my mixed units (that's rather a European perspective, don't you think? 😎 ). If I were to attempt some curve fits - and notwithstanding my 'joke' about polynomials, it's smooth and I bet a 2nd order fit would do it - I guess I could try to originate some 'curves-in-the-style-of'. But all I want to try to start with is to turn a £5 pale blue ABS Chinese thing into a 'short-shank-Selmer-soloist-E' (which is in my hand - OK, it's a bit green and has chewy marks in the beak from before my bridge fell out). How hard could that be? 🙂

Oh it’s not horror. I am fine with the mixed units. The reason it’s a rabbit hole is that I have been diving down it for 40 years…. I guess that makes it a whale hole now.

My spreadsheet calculates points on a circle (radial facing) for the feeler gauges I use. Which I ordered specially made because they were spaced equally along said circle. That way it makes it easy for me to judge a facing curve on an unknown piece - if the spacing between gauges changes abruptly, I know the curve needs work.

There is a spreadsheet available at Mojo Mouthpiece Works. See here: VIDEOS | Mojo on Wix

I do recommend using a glass gauge instead of a metal rule. I’ve tried both. The one from Theo Wanne is good.