Tech/maintenance A general thread on DIY repair

[Stephen Howard]

Well, there's another new thing - I have been around workshops for a long time, but I never saw one of those (though I have seen flat drill bits for steel, in fairly ancient museum donations.) I guess the idea is to grind off slightly less than half the round. Thanks!

More or less...sort of.
Here's one of my D-bit reamers:

Normal D-bit reamers have a blade that runs parallel to the shaft. Mine are set at an angle....because this makes them a hell of a lot easier to sharpen.

Here's a schematic:

You start off with your rod. You file a slightly rounded taper on the end of the rod...then polish it.
Then you file the cutting profile. At the tip it extends just below half the diameter of the rod.
Now sharpen the cutting surface on a whet/diamond stone. Aim for almost a mirror finish on it.
Heat the blade only up to red hot then quench it in water. Do not temper it - it needs to be glass-hard.
Clean it all up again then sharpen it again.

This is my basic reamer. There are few other mods I make to it to improve how it works, but for your purposes this will be plenty good enough.

 

[mark_addy]

Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to explain / picture it clearly. I have some silver steel somewhere, though I take your point about buying stock in the right sizes. I also found some old pliers to abuse - I'll save pics here until I've got somewhere with them.

 

[PigSquealer]

That's interesting! Here's mine - similar function, but layout is slightly different and there is no 'little bar' to drop the B a bit (I got this from Stephen's website) and flatten the C#. Something different going on with side-E too. I assumed mine was a Mk3 because of the presence of the front F, but it seems I may be wrong, or maybe stencils are different.
View attachment 35659

Looks pre 1928/ HC Master. The front F first appears IIRC 1927.

The Hawkes ‘doughnut’ system is far more superior in that it has fewer moving parts and is unaffected by wear In the additional mechanism.

You probably already know, but I’ll add on for our other readers.
I think the “doughnut” system first appears in 1899 on the Evette & Schaffer. Good enough that Hawks used this too.

The Buffet Early Evette & Schaeffer :: SaxPics.com

saxpics.com.

This below is one in my collection.

I'm not sure about wear rate of such bushings . I'd vote for oilite sintered bronze myself.

I’m challenged to find any so small. For the end of a barrel as distance spacer wouldn’t that be a bit expensive? As an insert sleeve I’m thinking the installation would require a light press in fit ? I have no clue how it would be possible to solder in without plugging the pours material. But yeah, oilite bearings have great longevity. Had tons of them in my printing machinery. Some 40+ years old and a zillion hours of use.

 

[PigSquealer]

I’ve made bushings for pillars and barrels both. This was done using yellow brass tubing.

 

[PigSquealer]

The bush from tubing or machined from bar stock.

Used undersized rod to locate & solder.

Trimmed long.

Used actual 0-1 rod to size.
Ground halfway. Undercut back. Tip angle @11°, angle 3-5°.

Distance between pillars was then hand fit.

 

[PigSquealer]

Piloting reamers can also be made.
The first section is original diameter. Then the cutter to needed bore.
I made this prior to owning a lathe again. Used a drill motor clamped in vise.

Always more to know.

View: https://youtu.be/5rwl-e_KI4U?is=a_kpSfiCyuaaSGJc

View: https://youtu.be/jlNxvnOxMCE?is=JpmHBSMiw4IFB3Sr

 

[turf3]

The Hawkes, Selmer, and Pierret examples with the donut key all require you to slide your RH2 to the right, onto a different pearl, then lift RH3 to emit D#. This seems like MORE trouble than sliding from low C to Eb as standard. The fork fingering requires no sliding.

I'm going to stick with my assertion that putting the fork Eb tone hole on the lower stack, like King Conn and Holton baritones, Conn and Holton basses, and some Martins, is the best implementation. The back side key depends on the designers choosing to make the key tubes long enough to resist wear.

 

[turf3]

That's interesting! Here's mine - similar function, but layout is slightly different and there is no 'little bar' to drop the B a bit (I got this from Stephen's website) and flatten the C#. Something different going on with side-E too. I assumed mine was a Mk3 because of the presence of the front F, but it seems I may be wrong, or maybe stencils are different.
View attachment 35659

At one point recently I went through a bunch of Martin photos, and SNs, and it appears that the "C# flattener" was on and off instruments, with no correlation of mfg date and its presence or absence. Definitely it was NOT on the Comm III; but it was intermittent and not clearly predictable by date on the models before that.

 

[PigSquealer]

At one point recently I went through a bunch of Martin photos, and SNs, and it appears that the "C# flattener" was on and off instruments, with no correlation of mfg date and its presence or absence. Definitely it was NOT on the Comm III; but it was intermittent and not clearly predictable by date on the models before that.

Best I know the lever style off upper stack backbar was only on HC Master, Typewriter & Troubadour. The Committee 1 onwards was changed to the screw adjustable style.

 

[turf3]

Yes, but my point is that some C1 and C2 have it, some don't, and it seems random. It's not like they introduced it at some point and then discontinued it at a later point. It's on, it's off, it's back on again, it's off...

 

[PigSquealer]

Yes, but my point is that some C1 and C2 have it, some don't, and it seems random. It's not like they introduced it at some point and then discontinued it at a later point. It's on, it's off, it's back on again, it's off...

I think we talked about this once before and agreed. Also that it was a mystery as to why ? Like it almost depended on how each played without. If needed it was a simple change to alter / add/ change. Just two parts and make the needed adjustments.
I have two Comm I’s. I need to compare them. Never looked or thought about this before.
Overall I have a stupid amount of Martin altos now. Like 12 or 14. HC, HC Master, Typewriter, Troubadour, Comm 1,2,3 and Indiana.
Missing a Standard, Imperial and… I forget 🤦‍♂️.

I had a major computer crash a year ago while doing a backup to Cloud. Lost everything on Cloud and computer at same time.
Eight years of intensive sax history studying and fourteen years of family pictures. +/- 12k of photos gone. One service quoted me $4.5k to “possibly” recover my data. Eff that !

I need to do a reshoot of Martins along with the others.
This was taken three years ago and saved on phone.

This on phone too, but what Martins ?? The annotations were on my computer 😤

 

[mark_addy]

The bush from tubing or machined from bar stock.
View attachment 35679

View attachment 35680

Used undersized rod to locate & solder.
View attachment 35681
Trimmed long.
View attachment 35684

Used actual 0-1 rod to size.
Ground halfway. Undercut back. Tip angle @11°, angle 3-5°.
View attachment 35682
View attachment 35685

Distance between pillars was then hand fit.

Some fiddly brass work there! I like the pilot reamer idea too.

I have a PT job in a university lab alongside an 80-yr-old bloke who started out at Gardner's (diesel engine manufacturer, long gone). He's the technician in the Civ Eng Soils Lab. He made miniature 'load cells' years ago to fit inside something called a triaxial cell, to test the compressive strength of soil samples while constrained within a water jacket at various pressures to simulate the supporting action of the soil around the sample at various depths in the ground. A load cell is basically a (very) thin cylinder, instrumented with strain gauges. You load it up axially (and ONLY axially, or it will buckle and you are fecked!) and as it starts to barrel (again, only in its elastic region) it deforms quite linearly as a function of the applied load.

Jim told me he drilled holes in brass rod, reamed them, supported them on tight-fitting dollies (bits of rod, in context here) and then turned the OD down to size - knowing what to aim for as he knew the exact size of the hole, and then removing the 'plug' when all was done. This was back when the lower reaches of UK HE employed people with skills. Maybe that is something that would work for me here.

(Then he had to drill tiny holes to pass the strain gauge wires through - at least I don't need to worry about that bit!)

 

[dreadnet]

I think we talked about this once before and agreed. Also that it was a mystery as to why ? Like it almost depended on how each played without. If needed it was a simple change to alter / add/ change. Just two parts and make the needed adjustments.
I have two Comm I’s. I need to compare them. Never looked or thought about this before.
Overall I have a stupid amount of Martin altos now. Like 12 or 14. HC, HC Master, Typewriter, Troubadour, Comm 1,2,3 and Indiana.
Missing a Standard, Imperial and… I forget 🤦‍♂️.

I had a major computer crash a year ago while doing a backup to Cloud. Lost everything on Cloud and computer at same time.
Eight years of intensive sax history studying and fourteen years of family pictures. +/- 12k of photos gone. One service quoted me $4.5k to “possibly” recover my data. Eff that !

I need to do a reshoot of Martins along with the others.
This was taken three years ago and saved on phone.
View attachment 35698

This on phone too, but what Martins ?? The annotations were on my computer 😤
View attachment 35699

Try using a hirens boot usb to recover deleted or corrupt files. Tools include file recovery and its free.

 

[PigSquealer]

The more you learn…. You realize the less you know. At least in my experience. Everything adds to experience.
I don’t know much.
I do know that I learn every day 😉. I love threads like this. Shared experiences are priceless. The craftsmen that came before us spent their lives on learning. Trial and error. Make the very best. Respect is due. I try to take the lessons learned and apply modern techniques they didn’t have at hand. That said, how the craftsman of long ago made machines (instruments) of such high quality is impressive. I’m following several locomotive train restorations. Massive beef machining of insane 1800’s close tolerance work.
Look at this mass going together !

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/7GqNu-5UWRo?is=jmDAbP8q0wf-PZ5z


On the opposite side of my ongoing learning is watchmaking. 30+ years and still studying. I quit doing this work almost ten years ago. No longer fun. Couldn’t see the little screws anymore.

View: https://youtu.be/wKVqLTzh_z4?is=9Bb0QVrBSL_XzDZz


Still big or small, a machine is a machine to be understood. Like people, each has character. Some we like, others….
Anyone need @Grumps address to send a HP C Melody 🤣 ?.
I hear he’s working on a PHd in Lampmakeing !

 

[PigSquealer]

Try using a hirens boot usb to recover deleted or corrupt files. Tools include file recovery and it’s free.

Much appreciated. Thanks ! ! !
I just tried this and it didn’t work. Connection to screen is also dead. Aka ; Black Death Screen.
The issue is a meltdown between memory, motherboard, screen and battery. A simultaneous short circuit of all three/ four connections.
It’s heat related. Something went wrong. The unit got hot while doing the backup and died.
Stuff happens…. I appreciate your sincere support and information.

 

[Grumps]

Still big or small, a machine is a machine to be understood. Like people, each has character. Some we like, others….
Anyone need @Grumps address to send a HP C Melody 🤣 ?.
I hear he’s working on a PHd in Lampmakeing !

I would never make a lamp out of a C melody saxophone.
It would never be bright enough...

 

[mark_addy]

Look at this mass going together !

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/7GqNu-5UWRo?is=jmDAbP8q0wf-PZ5z

I enjoyed that. Imagine one of your wheels is a bit 'out' regarding phasing for the coupling rod re-installation. At best (it's out on both wheels on the axle by the same amount) you somehow have to twiddle that axle around a bit while all the others stay put (chock everything, use a strop around the wheel spokes, pull with crane, break something?). At worst, your wheels are out of phase on one axle, and you are presumably screwed! BIG heavy stuff, very accurate, out in the ****ty grimy world getting worn out really quick! Nice to see young blokes involved - at our engine museum I (55 y.o.) am youngest by a long way. And on that subject, I didn't even look at the watch stuff, it would get me down too much. My eyes are poor - two pairs of glasses needed for detail things, and that gives such crap depth of field (and my memory of putting things down is so poor) that I spent more time groping around the bench searching for things than I do working. Teeny tiny stuff is not for me - I don't want to get much smaller than a pivot screw.

Back on with my Martin musings - we seemed to have pinned it down to a 1927 HC stencil, but have a look at this. I thought at first the odd-looking B-Bb roller was an add-on commissioned by some owner who liked to move that way, but I have seen pics of another 'Lewin' stencil alto which is just the same. And the table does not look much like a '27 HC, or (from my position of relative ignorance) very much like other, later, Martin efforts either, where I think C# comes down and allows horizontal movement straight onto Bb. Rather odd.

(Edit - a hypothesis occurs to me. I wonder if they bought older horns cheap (1927 pattern, say) - but specified the current-line Bb key (because it would fit and they thought it made a big difference to playability). But maybe the 'new' C# key wouldn't go on the older-style horn (which has a one-piece C#), which is perhaps why that flat top (in my side-on pic) of the Bb key which looks like it should adjoin something, doesn't - and maybe they added that strange little tapered roller as an attempt to make getting from C# to Bb more do-able in the circumstances? If that holds up, dating the horn on the Bb key would make some sense!)

 

[turf3]

I enjoyed that. Imagine one of your wheels is a bit 'out' regarding phasing for the coupling rod re-installation. At best (it's out on both wheels on the axle by the same amount) you somehow have to twiddle that axle around a bit while all the others stay put (chock everything, use a strop around the wheel spokes, pull with crane, break something?). At worst, your wheels are out of phase on one axle, and you are presumably screwed! BIG heavy stuff, very accurate, out in the ****ty grimy world getting worn out really quick! Nice to see young blokes involved - at our engine museum I (55 y.o.) am youngest by a long way. And on that subject, I didn't even look at the watch stuff, it would get me down too much. My eyes are poor - two pairs of glasses needed for detail things, and that gives such crap depth of field (and my memory of putting things down is so poor) that I spent more time groping around the bench searching for things than I do working. Teeny tiny stuff is not for me - I don't want to get much smaller than a pivot screw.

Back on with my Martin musings - we seemed to have pinned it down to a 1927 HC stencil, but have a look at this. I thought at first the odd-looking B-Bb roller was an add-on commissioned by some owner who liked to move that way, but I have seen pics of another 'Lewin' stencil alto which is just the same. And the table does not look much like a '27 HC, or (from my position of relative ignorance) very much like other, later, Martin efforts either, where I think C# comes down and allows horizontal movement straight onto Bb. Rather odd.

(Edit - a hypothesis occurs to me. I wonder if they bought older horns cheap (1927 pattern, say) - but specified the current-line Bb key (because it would fit and they thought it made a big difference to playability). But maybe the 'new' C# key wouldn't go on the older-style horn (which has a one-piece C#), which is perhaps why that flat top (in my side-on pic) of the Bb key which looks like it should adjoin something, doesn't - and maybe they added that strange little tapered roller as an attempt to make getting from C# to Bb more do-able in the circumstances? If that holds up, dating the horn on the Bb key would make some sense!)

View attachment 35712

Other than the little roller, this is basically the same layout as the Conn New Wonder tenors and altos. For reasons I don't understand, there is not a direct slide path from C# to Bb. On the Conn baritones, the C# key runs further to the right (as pictured), so you do have a direct slide path from C# to Bb.

So, this is not an example of Frankenhorn assembly from parts of different ages, but a design choice. In my opinion, not a very good design choice. A bit later, the Committee models did extend the C# key to the righit (as in the photo above) allowing a direct slide. I believe the first Martin Committees came out about the time the Conn 6M/10M LH table was introduced with a different, angled, slide path from C# to Bb. So both companies had seen that the design in the photo above wasn't good for that slide.

I don't believe the barrel shaped roller will help C# to Bb anyway. It looks more like it's for the comfort of people who were accustomed to the much older layout where Bb was only to the right (as pictured) of B and didn't have the extension to below (as pictured) the B. Basically with this layout you've got two choices for C# to Bb - either bushwhack across country at an angle, or go straight down (as pictured) from C#, across B, down to Bb. In truth, that's what I do a lot of the time, just jump over the B, and if you more fast and definitively, you'll never even hear a bobble.

In my opinion, the Conn baritone layout is the very best of the bunch. Unlike the Selmer BA, M6, and on/Martin Comm 3/Buescher True Tone/etc. layout, it doesn't require you to move your little finger outward (its weakest direction) while pushing down; and it offers a direct path to slide from C# to Bb.

 

[mark_addy]

Here's some pics of a 1928 Handcraft alto. Front F appears, top end (with exception of octave key touch) looks like mine, fork Eb is still there - but LH pinky table is rather different, an older style as you note above. To me, it still looks possible that Martin sold an old design as a stencil some time in the 30s, and someone specified a newer part on it. I'm poking my neck out to say it looks like a Committee Bb key with an extra little roller on it. My horn it seems is not a one off, because I've seen the same thing on several others. It's a weird thing, and I am putting up a weird hypothesis!

Edit - it gets worse, since Eb and C share the same rod (half each...), that bit looks more like a Committee 2...so maybe 40s...

 

[PigSquealer]

Here's some pics of a 1928 Handcraft alto. Front F appears, top end (with exception of octave key touch) looks like mine, fork Eb is still there - but LH pinky table is rather different, an older style as you note above. To me, it still looks possible that Martin sold an old design as a stencil some time in the 30s, and someone specified a newer part on it. I'm poking my neck out to say it looks like a Committee Bb key with an extra little roller on it. My horn it seems is not a one off, because I've seen the same thing on several others. It's a weird thing, and I am putting up a weird hypothesis!

Edit - it gets worse, since Eb and C share the same rod (half each...), that bit looks more like a Committee 2...so maybe 40s...

You have an interesting horn. That pinky table configuration started with Comm 1 and 1936 date. Best I know, none have the extra barrel roller on Bb ( a two roller Bb). Could be a tech done upgrade ?
Lots of small clues to review / look for on yours.
The forked E ( it works from E) cup IMHO didn’t exist after 1930.
The LH pinky table configuration started in 1936.
Around 1927-28 the LH palm keys changed. A pillar stop changed to foot cast into key.
Martin continued making the HC as stencil for years. The Indiana is the same horn.


The Martin Story site recently disappeared 😢
Still our member @nigeld has a very informative thread here.

Saxophones - Martin Indiana Saxophones - History and Models

Martin Indiana Saxophones Part 1 - The Indiana Band Instrument Company I have been trying to learn more about Martin Indiana saxophones recently. The Indiana was the brand name for Martin’s second-line instruments. I thought I would write down what I have found out. None of this information...

cafesaxophone.com