Tech/maintenance A general thread on DIY repair

[Stephen Howard]

And best of all is the implementation on Conn and King baritones, Conn and Holton basses, and various Martins at different times, where the tone hole is part of the lower stack.

Nope. The KISS principle applies.
There is no internal regulation on the doughnut system - just key height. The only - and I mean only - way it fails is if there's a leak on the sub-pad. As soon as you move a key along or alongside the stack you have to have internal regulation - and it'll be compound regulation too.

 

[turf3]

OK, if you take a look at the arm that's coming from the stack back to the Eb key.

The silver horn, there's a transfer bar from the keytouch arm to the arm that goes back to the Eb key. The arm that goes back to the Eb key from that transfer bar, does not appear to have any kind of a key tube attached to it; it's what Stephen described, just the arm with a hole in it.

By contrast, on the brass horn, that arm that goes from the transfer bar to the Eb key, has a piece of key tube attached to it. (I wonder if there's maybe no transfer bar at all and the keytouch is on the same tube?)

The silver one is going to be prone to wear and inaccuracy, far more than the brass one. I could improve the silver one by putting even a 3/8" long piece of key tube (shortening the key tube next to it by the same amount); or possibly putting a steel bushing in the hole. (Which would, however, be prone to wearing the key rod. So maybe nix nix on the steel bushing.)

 

[Stephen Howard]

That's interesting! Here's mine - similar function, but layout is slightly different and there is no 'little bar' to drop the B a bit (I got this from Stephen's website) and flatten the C#. Something different going on with side-E too. I assumed mine was a Mk3 because of the presence of the front F, but it seems I may be wrong, or maybe stencils are different.
View attachment 35659

The thumb key looks a little high. Don't get too strung out about having it run parallel to the body; if you put a little downward angle on it you might find it's much more comfortable in use. You'll have to taper the buffer felt out accordingly though in order to maintain the 'throw' of the mech (very important).

 

[Stephen Howard]

The silver one is going to be prone to wear and inaccuracy, far more than the brass one. I could improve the silver one by putting even a 3/8" long piece of key tube (shortening the key tube next to it by the same amount); or possibly putting a steel bushing in the hole. (Which would, however, be prone to wearing the key rod. So maybe nix nix on the steel bushing.)

If you're going to extend a key barrel (at the expense of an adjacent barrel) you should always aim to split the extention either side of the key arm - otherwise you end up with a barrel that's prone to flaring (in the key arm section) and you're back where you started in no short order, and with no easy fix. In this instance I would be looking to move the threaded pillar back. Alternatively you could shorten the transfer bar to bring the key arm slightly further up the stack. Either option gives you scope for swedging down the line as a stop-gap fix before oversizing the rod screw.

 

[turf3]

Nope. The KISS principle applies.
There is no internal regulation on the doughnut system - just key height. The only - and I mean only - way it fails is if there's a leak on the sub-pad. As soon as you move a key along or alongside the stack you have to have internal regulation - and it'll be compound regulation too.

I'm not sure what you mean by internal regulation or compound regulation.

The fork Eb on the Conn baritone is just another key on the lower stack. Just like several other keys, the middle finger RH closes two keys, the one directly under it, and the Eb key further down the stack. It's exceptionally easy to regulate, because it's not on the long bar with all the other keys - the touch piece is fixedly connected to the low Eb pad, and it bears on the top of the pad cup under it - so you just sand that cork down till both pads close at the same time. It's no more difficult, and in fact easier, than the back-bar regulation that's all over any saxophone.

I can't compare it to the doughnut system, can you post a photo of that? I don't believe I've ever seen a doughnut key for fork Eb, only for the high C/C# on sopranos.

 

[turf3]

If you're going to extend a key barrel (at the expense of an adjacent barrel) you should always aim to split the extention either side of the key arm - otherwise you end up with a barrel that's prone to flaring (in the key arm section) and you're back where you started in no short order, and with no easy fix. In this instance I would be looking to move the threaded pillar back. Alternatively you could shorten the transfer bar to bring the key arm slightly further up the stack. Either option gives you scope for swedging down the line as a stop-gap fix before oversizing the rod screw.

I like the idea of shortening the transfer bar.

Without the thing in front of me I can't see what problems that might get into. In photos it always looks like you've got TONS of room and LOTS of options, then you actually hold the thing in your hand and say "oh dear, THAT surely won't work."

 

[Stephen Howard]

, and it bears on the top of the pad cup under it -

Bingo - internal regulation.
Compound? That key that bears down relies on internal regulation of the D to Aux.F...assuming it's linked (they aren't always).
So that's two points of internal regulation plus key flex.
It's better than the shonky 'sling a key round the back' system - but it's still fussier than it needs to be.

Not sure if I have shot of the doughnut system on file - but it's essentially like the Aux.B vent on sopranos...one keycup sitting atop another.

 

[mark_addy]

OK, if you take a look at the arm that's coming from the stack back to the Eb key.

The silver horn, there's a transfer bar from the keytouch arm to the arm that goes back to the Eb key. The arm that goes back to the Eb key from that transfer bar, does not appear to have any kind of a key tube attached to it; it's what Stephen described, just the arm with a hole in it.

By contrast, on the brass horn, that arm that goes from the transfer bar to the Eb key, has a piece of key tube attached to it. (I wonder if there's maybe no transfer bar at all and the keytouch is on the same tube?)

The silver one is going to be prone to wear and inaccuracy, far more than the brass one. I could improve the silver one by putting even a 3/8" long piece of key tube (shortening the key tube next to it by the same amount); or possibly putting a steel bushing in the hole. (Which would, however, be prone to wearing the key rod. So maybe nix nix on the steel bushing.)

Well-spotted. You're right (but I didn't know what you meant until I had the things in my hands again) and your prognosis is also right - the silver one is 101 years old and there is a fair bit of play in that end of things, more than in the brass one (though I only know the history of the last 35 years of the silver one, and not at all of the other). So if not a steel bush (and given my current ineptitude at soldering)...maybe PB 🙂 I'm going to need a few small reamers.

Edit - I guess no-one uses nylon or PTFE bushes, which would be fairly straightforward.

 

[mark_addy]

If you're going to extend a key barrel (at the expense of an adjacent barrel) you should always aim to split the extention either side of the key arm - otherwise you end up with a barrel that's prone to flaring (in the key arm section) and you're back where you started in no short order, and with no easy fix. In this instance I would be looking to move the threaded pillar back. Alternatively you could shorten the transfer bar to bring the key arm slightly further up the stack. Either option gives you scope for swedging down the line as a stop-gap fix before oversizing the rod screw.

(I am put in mind of fat MAMILs buying carbon-fibre 10 grand racing bicycles - the weakest link in my performance is not the horn 🙂 But thanks for your interest, I am really learning a lot!).

 

[mark_addy]

The thumb key looks a little high. Don't get too strung out about having it run parallel to the body; if you put a little downward angle on it you might find it's much more comfortable in use. You'll have to taper the buffer felt out accordingly though in order to maintain the 'throw' of the mech (very important).

Thanks, I'll have a mess around there. The LH thumb rest on my baritone was very odd - a big protruding pointy lump of MOP which was rather uncomfortable, perhaps because the end of my left thumb is messed up from an old accident. I now know MOP files nicely and retains its lustre when you do so!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Music medic have quite a range of woodwind specific tools. Postage from USA wasn't too bad when I bought my spring pliers.

Browsing modelling shops on ebay can be quite useful for smaller tools. Also for small amounts of sheet brass, little nuts and bolts, etc.

A box of emery boards can be quite useful for a home repairer.

The fish disgorger on ebay is identical to their spring hook and half the price, so browse thoroughly.

The very cheap watch repair kit had lots of tools that come in handy for fiddling with saxophones.

Oh and don't forget the scalpel.

 

[turf3]

Well-spotted. You're right (but I didn't know what you meant until I had the things in my hands again) and your prognosis is also right - the silver one is 101 years old and there is a fair bit of play in that end of things, more than in the brass one (though I only know the history of the last 35 years of the silver one, and not at all of the other). So if not a steel bush (and given my current ineptitude at soldering)...maybe PB 🙂 I'm going to need a few small reamers.

Edit - I guess no-one uses nylon or PTFE bushes, which would be fairly straightforward.

I'm not sure about wear rate of such bushings . I'd vote for oilite sintered bronze myself.

 

[turf3]

And best of all is the implementation on Conn and King baritones, Conn and Holton basses, and various Martins at different times, where the tone hole is part of the lower stack.

I have one soprano here with me (Buescher) - I'll take a look at it. The other two are far away (yes, I own THREE sopranos even though I almost never play soprano (don't ask - )).

I looked at my Buescher soprano, and the arm that goes from the transfer bar to the lever that closes the fork Eb. It has a VERY SHORT section of key tube. It might increase the bearing length 30-50 % compared to just the arm thickness. It's certainly not swageable.

Some day when the work's all done I'll take a look at my Couturier and Holton sopranos and their fork Eb mechs.

Now here's the place where I admit I'm being a bit silly; I never use the fork Eb fingering. I used to do, as it makes several patterns easier, but I don't have it on my tenors or altos, and I decided I had better de-train myself so I wouldn't go for that fingering on alto or tenor and not have it.

 

[mark_addy]

Now here's the place where I admit I'm being a bit silly; I never use the fork Eb fingering. I used to do, as it makes several patterns easier, but I don't have it on my tenors or altos, and I decided I had better de-train myself so I wouldn't go for that fingering on alto or tenor and not have it.

I don't think that's silly - the reason I'm considering keeping it is that it appears on everything I play, so building it into muscle memory is an OK thing to do.

Regarding PTFE - I had a piston once on a bike engine where the circlip groove was fecked at one end. So (following something model aeroplane people do, and also something appearing on a few pre-war bike engines but in a modern material) I made a bung for that end of the gudgeon (wrist) pin out of PTFE. It stood up fine, to my surprise, in rather more hostile conditions than those presented by a saxophone (though, of course, with the pace of my blistering bebop yadah yadah). I could make 3 bushes and if they lasted 10 years each the problem would fall to my executors.

I spent 30 mins last night down an internet rabbit hole of brass vs bronze bushes in clock repair. This diversion from the critical path would have cost hundreds already if sought using professional psychotherapeutic practice.

 

[mark_addy]

Bingo - internal regulation.
Compound? That key that bears down relies on internal regulation of the D to Aux.F...assuming it's linked (they aren't always).
So that's two points of internal regulation plus key flex.
It's better than the shonky 'sling a key round the back' system - but it's still fussier than it needs to be.

Not sure if I have shot of the doughnut system on file - but it's essentially like the Aux.B vent on sopranos...one keycup sitting atop another.

I think there might be temporarily available photos on ebay at the moment.

 

[Stephen Howard]

So here’s a Buescher tenor I’m working on at the moment (the third Buescher on the bench in the last ten days).

This has the classic Eb issue whereby the arm that actuates the Eb key has little more that a hole drilled through the arm to serve as a key barrel. Yes, you could ream it out and bush it but if there’s that much wear in it then you might as well upgrade the entire stack. But sooner or later you’re going to run into the same old problem.

In this case there’s room on the body to shift the threaded pillar (blue) down the body to a maximum of 20mm before it hits the bottom bow ring – and there still wouldn’t be an obstruction to the low C# key.
All jolly good – and now you’d have to slice the Eb lever key (red) and fit an extension – and then fit an extended lower barrel to the Eb lever key.
But then you run into a problem because the actuating pin (green) will now miss the foot of the Eb cup key (yellow). Maybe you could move the pillar down only five mm or so and still have the pin able to work the Eb cup key...but that doesn’t leave much meat on your extended barrels.

How about reversing the pin? Easy enough to do – but the pin also serves as the regulator for the lever key’s height and needs to butt up against the threaded pillar...so you’d have to fit a pin that extended through the arm.
By now it’s all getting rather complicated – and thus expensive – and for a mechanism that clearly has limited use. And that’s why the spring on the Eb cup key has been reversed and due clearance provided so that the lever key doesn’t touch the cup key foot. But the payoff for this is that there’s no chance of a leak from the Eb...at least until such times as the pad rots – and it improves the feel of the lower stack.

As for the split D system, here's a Selmer Modele 26 C melody.

I could be wrong but I think the Selmer requires you to lift and switch a finger to move between the Eb and the D. In this respect the ‘Eb round the back’ mech wins out in terms of functionality.
My Rampone bari has a similar mech but I'm pretty sure it works via split fingering. The Boosey system is different again, and I would call it semi-automatic.

 

[Woodpad]

This is the system I found on a Pierret. Not my favorite. I guess the extra touch should be played like a bis key.

 

[mark_addy]

Did someone repair pads with silicone mastic?

If and when I do something to this - I'll make a PTFE bush and see what happens. If it dies very quick I suppose I can return it to original with a brass bush! I have the luxury here of course of working for myself and so not charging someone for experimental work, and not offering myself a warranty - so no disrespect intended to the professional contributors here, this is just fun for me. I just ordered a bundle of small reamers from ebay but, as they were out of the bottom of someone's late grandad's toolbox, who knows what will turn up...

 

[Stephen Howard]

Did someone repair pads with silicone mastic?

If and when I do something to this - I'll make a PTFE bush and see what happens. If it dies very quick I suppose I can return it to original with a brass bush! I have the luxury here of course of working for myself and so not charging someone for experimental work, and not offering myself a warranty - so no disrespect intended to the professional contributors here, this is just fun for me. I just ordered a bundle of small reamers from ebay but, as they were out of the bottom of someone's late grandad's toolbox, who knows what will turn up...

You got a lathe, right? Make your own D-bit reamers out of silver steel.

Dawkes and Windplus (both in the UK) sell silver steel lengths for making rod screws

 

[mark_addy]

You got a lathe, right? Make your own D-bit reamers out of silver steel.

Dawkes and Windplus (both in the UK) sell silver steel lengths for making rod screws

Well, there's another new thing - I have been around workshops for a long time, but I never saw one of those (though I have seen flat drill bits for steel, in fairly ancient museum donations.) I guess the idea is to grind off slightly less than half the round. Thanks!