Intonation 1917 Conn Wonder baritone has tuning issues

sax0051

New Member
Messages
4
I have been playing saxophones for a long time but I thought I'd challenge myself with a vintage baritone. I reconditioned the horn new pads all sealing well, new cork on the neck, and yeah it's in good mechanical shape.
The problem is it has great tuning above the 2nd octave A and below middle D but in between G down to middle D it goes sharp. So going from A down to G I thought maybe the octave mechanize but it closes vent on neck and opens vent on body almost to a nanosecond. And it's nice and tight.
I can pull the tuning back close to a 1/4 of being sharp if I alter my embrasure from A to G.
I've heard low notes on bari play sharp but it's really only the 6 notes I mentioned that have issue everything is perfectly in tune. Anybody know what's going on here?
 
Very common with ancient Conn baritone saxophones. I have one myself. To get the best out of them you need a big, fat chambered mouthpiece. One of those old "pickle-barrel" styles. That, or have a modern large chambered mouthpiece with an extended shank. I've used both to better manage my Conn. You'll always have to lip-down those notes below G to middle D however... which ain't the worst thing... as you get used to the horn.
 
I don't have experience with the really old Conns, but I have a strong suspicion that the basic baritone acoustic design didn't really change through the life of the product.

You don't HAVE to have the dill-pickle mouthpiece, although using one of those will allow you to push in and shorten the sounding length so the scale is accurate. Mouthpieces with the chamber the same size or slightly larger than the cork bore will do, too. I use a Meyer on my 1946 Conn baritone (which, I admit, is not a 1917; but I bet it's the same tube).

The problem with these old baritones (and it's not just Conns, and it's not just baritones) is that the scale (the positioning of all the toneholes) was designed based around a mouthpiece chamber volume considerably larger than what's common today. (The old dill-pickle style.) So the scale is VERY ACCURATE if you have a large chamber piece, pushed well in on the neck. When you put a small chamber piece on it, it plays sharper, so you have to pull out - way out. Of course if the small chamber piece has a short shank, the joint to the neck becomes mechanically hinky. If it has a long shank, it'll stay in place; but the problem is that the sounding length has been increased, and the tone holes are in the same place; and all that increase in the sounding length is at the top of the tube. So of course the percentage increase in tube length for high Eb is going to be a lot more than for low Bb.

So when you take that small chamber piece and pull it out, even if it's got a long shank, you have to find some kind of "average" tuning, which most people do by tuing to a note somewhere in the middle of the range. If you get (for example), middle G in tune, the tube's too long for the high notes, making them flat, and it's too short for the low notes, making them sharp. Oldest story in the book. You see the old horns with crescents in the bell tone holes to try to bring them down, and palm keys raised way way up, which just makes the pitch wild as heck. This also leads to some "interesting" tuning anomalies such as the well-documented wicked sharp middle E and F of Conn baritones. It'll make altissimo very difficult and weirdly out of tune, too.

Adding length to the mouthpiece shank will make the mechanical joint more reliable but it doesn't shorten the sounding length or fix the basic issue.

The good news is, you don't have to buy a 120 year old dill pickle that feels and sounds like blowing into an old gym sock. You need, as I noted, something without a constriction in the chamber - something like a Link or Meyer type design. Jody Jazz makes a couple models that might work - I know their bass mouthpiece plays very well on my Conn baritone. Yeah, that Berg 0 or 1 chamber - that's probably not going to work for you. When I went from a Vandoren with small round chamber to a Meyer, I immediately had to push in something like 5/8", and notes that had "tuning anomalies" snapped right into tune. Altissimo started popping out, perfectly well in tune. That nasty habit of squeaking in the palm keys when pushing hard went away. The middle E and F went from wicked sharp to right in tune.

Over the ensuing years, I've found I'm pushing further and further on - till I've got the Meyer for a sounding length that's at least an inch shorter than with the old Vandoren. Just imagine how much of a difference that makes - move any mouthpiece an INCH on the neck and see what it does. I believe that having a mouthpiece properly matched to the scale of the horn has allowed me to use more relaxed embouchure and voicing, which has lowered my basic "input pitch" and improved many aspects of my playing. If you're not fighting the tuning of the thing constantly, you can focus on air and support and that soft yet firm embouchure that's needed.

One last note: don't be fooled by the various mouthpiece shank lengths. The shank length past the beginning of the cork has no acoustical meaning, it's purely for the mechanical joint. If you take measurements, take them to the tip of the MP, not the cork end of the shank.
 
My ‘36 Conn works fine with a PPT or the Berg that came with it - I’d guess from the 50s.
Pete's own description indicates that the PPT baritone is inspired by/based on/derived from the Link design.

Bergs vary, as you know there are four different chambers.

And, some people just force every horn to play in tune. I bet if you were to map intonation of your Conn, when tuned to a good middle G (it's a mid length note and fully vented), you'd find the PPT prety much spot on from top to bottom while the Berg runs flat up top and sharp down below. Furthermore, I'd bet that measuring to the tip of the MP you'd find the sounding length is considerably shorter with the PPT when it's in tune to that middle G, than for the Berg when IT's in tune to that middle G.

What I can say (and did, at length, oh boy) is that playing the Conn baritone with a mouthpiece of generous chamber dimensions makes everything a heck of a lot easier. It's not JUST intonation, it's altissimo response, it's starting low Bb at pianissimo, it's overall flexibility. And I'm not using a HUGE chamber piece, just a plain old Meyer.
 
I would choose a mouthpiece of at least medium chamber or larger.
Octave key pads should open about the same amount around 2-3mm at most.

Place the mouthpiece and play with everything closed. Place mouthpiece in best tune. Mark MPC position on cork. Then play all as naturally open. Get mouthpiece in best tune. Mark location. Place mouthpiece between the marks. “Center the mouthpiece”.
Play B. Raise or lower key height of Bb to best tune. Regulate B. Then play D and adjust low C height.
Proceed to side F# get in tune. Then play F# as RH2. They should match. Adjust lower stack to achieve this. In your case as the horn is playing sharp. I would tape equal thickness material under the key feet to test. Sharp, the venting is too open. I would lower until stuffy then open to clean clear note.
Upper stack.
Play C with the same as above MPC setting. Note the state of tune.
Play A, slowly finger G closed and listen for when it gets stuffy or quits playing. Tape shim under cam to lower and retest.
The vent height of G affects the three key cups / pads above it. Bis key can be challenging.
There’s also margin balance relationship between BAG and palm keys.
@LostCircuits starts with setting the palm keys & upper stack first. There’s different ways to tune.
Good luck 🍀
 
Key heights can help here and there, but the first order of business is to get the mouthpiece chamber volume so you can have the correct scale. In truth, except for side keys, most key heights in the stacks are limited in adjustment by the height of the uppermost stack keys. Below those, max key height is mostly governed by the heights of the posts and the length of the key arms. You can lower them but you can't make them higher without reverting to the upper stack. (Horns so old they don't have the upper-lower stack connection are exempt from this discussion, of course.)

The first order of business is the correct mouthpiece internal volume and scale matching.

What Grups is saying, I assume from personal experience, would indicate some kind of acoustic design edit between the 1910s versions and the later baritones. Maybe when the neck vent was changed and the back bar of the stacks was changed to a front bar?
 
Okay it sounds like I've just been spoiled growing up with modern horns and I just need to work the horn a bit more to get it playing good. Thanks for the advise and insight. Also I have a Theo Wanne Jazz Essential MP (#8) and it came with a Belmounte (which I'd never hear of) which has a larger chamber then the Theo. However, they both cause the same tuning issue. Maybe I will take the horn and test play some larger chamber Meyer or Berg.
It looks like the upper stack key heights are a little under 3 mm and the lower stack is 3.25 mm. Is this a big deal? I know I've read that Conn horns like generous key heights. It'd be nice to get it playing good it's so light compared to a modern Low A bari but I do wish it had an E high key.
 
In general, key heights go up as you move down the horn. The mechanism's designed for this. Key heights of 3.25 mm (if you mean at the open end, facing you) are RIDICULOUSLY low. I just took a look at my TENOR: at the top of the upper stack they're about 6 mm and at the bottom of the lower stack about 8 mm. I suspect someone trying to use a small chamber piece on this thing has put whacking great corks under all the key feet, which is further throwing everything out of whack.

I don't think the Conns need any more or less pad opening than any other - all of my horns are set up with what look to me like "ordinary" opening (which is about the same as flute piccolo and alto flute pads, to be honest), whether they be Conns or something else.

If it were me I'd start this with something like a Caravan mouthpiece, which is most comparable to what the horn was originally sold with (and a Caravan mouthpiece would be something handy to have). Barring that, a Link or Meyer would be OK. I'd stay away from Bergs, I believe that even their "large chamber" pieces are not that large.
 
Maybe I will take the horn and test play some larger chamber Meyer or Berg.
It will be a waste of time. Believe me. I went through this twenty-five years ago. Not even a Link will do it. These can be great horns though, with that Conn bark and bite. Lightweight too if you have to swing one around in a bar. But the odd neck octave configuration can be fragile, so you do have to watch that.

The first mouthpiece that enabled me to gig with my similar horn came from a generous forum member from another site back about twenty-five years ago. He pretty much told me what I'm telling you now, and actually mailed a pickle-barrel Woodwind Co. mouthpiece to me gratis. A K5 I believe, that measures .088" in tip opening and is a big, fat thing. It was styled way back when for "dance men" or something like that, and fortunately didn't play like an old victrola. It worked for some time until I found something much more open tipped in a RPC custom made piece that Ron made with a big chamber and is about five and a half inches in total length if I recall correctly. You're not likely to find one of those these days, but there was someone out there that was making double-chambered mouthpieces especially for these old beasts and that's the sort of thing you want to find. If you do find something that works, they're totally worth it to play. Just make sure you don't go down someone else's rabbit hole who has no experience with these particular finnicky antiques and go buying and trying standard modern offerings. It will be a waste of money.
 
It looks like the upper stack key heights are a little under 3 mm and the lower stack is 3.25 mm. Is this a big deal? I know I've read that Conn horns like generous key heights.
What keys did you measure and at what point was the measurement taken from ? 3 to 3.25mm is close to 1/8” and wouldn’t play.
Height is measured from face to pad and top of tone hole at the largest point. Ignore all the net blab on Conn heights. Work on what’s in front of you as an unique individual.
1787354981784.webp

1787355902453.webp
 
I just took a look at my TENOR: at the top of the upper stack they're about 6 mm and at the bottom of the lower stack about 8 mm.
Average everyday settings for a Conn 16m Shooting Star/ director.
I suspect someone trying to use a small chamber piece on this thing has put whacking great corks under all the key feet, which is further throwing everything out of whack
Our OP stated in his opening post he did the work himself.
I reconditioned the horn new pads all sealing well, new cork on the neck, and yeah it's in good mechanical shape.
Playing sharp is not a characteristic of very low key height.
 
I have been playing saxophones for a long time but I thought I'd challenge myself with a vintage baritone. I reconditioned the horn new pads all sealing well, new cork on the neck, and yeah it's in good mechanical shape.
The problem is it has great tuning above the 2nd octave A and below middle D but in between G down to middle D it goes sharp. So going from A down to G I thought maybe the octave mechanize but it closes vent on neck and opens vent on body almost to a nanosecond. And it's nice and tight.
I can pull the tuning back close to a 1/4 of being sharp if I alter my embrasure from A to G.
I've heard low notes on bari play sharp but it's really only the 6 notes I mentioned that have issue everything is perfectly in tune. Anybody know what's going on here?
Hey OP

Lots of experience on here. Mine is not the preferred route - but I play the same sax as you (a 1918 USQMC army-surplus instrument) in a big band. I got used to using a metal Link STM (7* FWIW, which is probably not much) on it, and the crook was lengthened in a local shop with 5/8" lump of 15mm water pipe soft soldered on the end, under the cork. It works fine in the band. I might just be used to it by now - probably more athletics going on in my gob than some players might be wanting.

Edit - my tuning is most challenging in the area yours is. For long notes I have even resorted to putting down 'extra' fingers somewhere further down the horn to pull it down a bit, when I remember. Or play fast and don't care 🙂
 
As mentioned a few times, the main thing is the MPC. I'd go hunting for some really old "the Woodwind Company" or similar, alternatively the "GM" from MorganMouthpieces or maybe an old Lamberson might help. But I am also wondering about your stack height, to me this almost sounds unplayable. It might be worth checking the measurements again.

And yes, you can change the intonation quite a bit through key height regulation. I would "look" into this, as well but with care, you can "sharpen" the upper stack by opening up the height but it is an iterative process that you may have to do a few times to get it dialed in. And with the current MPCs you have, it may not get you very far, no matter what.

For reference, my 12M starts at around 5 mm for the palm keys and quickly moves to ~ 8 mm on the upper stack and then up to 12 mm at the bottom (I did not set it up but it plays fine so I won't wasted any effort)
 
Can you make the RPC like @Grumps has with the extended shank ?
That would cause the opposite effect - sort of. A large chamber means a shorter acoustic cone, which is what OP needs, whereas an extended shank extends or elongates the acoustic cone, meaning the top notes will become flat and the bottom notes will become sharp (relative to each other). But there are tons of suitable MPCs out there, FWIW even a Brillhart "Great Neck" would probably work. Or find a Ebolin Special for $30 and have it refaced. Lots of options!
 
Height is measured from face to pad and top of tone hole at the largest point. Ignore all the net blab on Conn heights. Work on what’s in front of you as an unique individual.
Yeah that was the measurement from the inside of the tone hole up to the key. I remeasured like in the picture it's about 9 mm.

Speaking of unique issues for the horn it had a large dent right under the left hand thumb rest but I worked it out smooth. I know the shape of the back wall of the body tube is important for intonation. Could that make the horn play shape? Or everyone still thinks it's a MP issue.
Thanks
 

Social

New! Social Feeds

Look out for the navigation icon:

Follow CafeSaxophone

Latest Song of the Month

Trending

Forum statistics

Topics
32,036
Messages
577,564
Members
8,114
Latest member
Rodrigo Z
Back
Top Bottom