Intonation Temperament: just or equal?

[Tenor Viol]

Doesn't matter. The difference is well within the margin of error of your ear. Let the violinists fuss over that bit of trivia.

It's not trivia and it's not limited to violinists. It's a big issue for lower pitched instruments, and affects woodwind, brass, and strings. It's only 'not' an issue if you're unaware of the differences. Violins, violas, and cellos tune their strings to perfect fifths not ET fifths. Basses are tuned in fourths.

Since in the modern era of easy access to recorded music most people are only exposed to equal temperament, they are less aware of how out-of-tune it can be. ET is a compromise designed to enable keyboard instruments to be more-or-less in tune regardless of what key they are playing in. Fretted instruments like guitars are mostly set-up (fret positioning) to play ET as well for the same reasons.

It's much more critical with small ensembles like wind/brass ensembles, string quartets, viol consorts, or in close harmony e.g. barbershop, as that's when the tuning issues are more apparent, especially the major third. A chord sung/played where the notes are in 'just' tuning really 'pings' in a way that an ET one doesn't.

 

[mark_addy]

(In a previous life, I taught this stuff in an engineering context, oddly enough. If anyone wants to read about what, to be a bit grand, can be described as the psycho-physical basis for some of this in relation to Fourier harmonic series and the way the inner ear works, then a good source with no maths in it is J.G.Roederer's 'Physics and Psychophysics of Music'. Academic books tend to be a bit pricey - I used to use 'Abebooks' and Ebay to find this kind of stuff more cheaply).

 

[skeller047]

Another book I found interesting on this subject is https://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/

When playing in an ensemble, one should play “in tune” with others. That may mean matching people that are out of tune, especially if you are in a musically subordinate role. In a big band, for example, the lead alto player should match the intonation of the lead trumpet player, and the rest of the sax section should match the lead alto. Whether that’s in tune with the piano is irrelevant, except maybe for the trumpet player.

My understanding of stretch tuning on a piano is that it is due to the out of tune harmonic frequencies of a tightly stretched string, and that the stretched notes sound more “in tune”, even though the fundamental pitch is too high or low.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Another book I found interesting on this subject is https://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/

When playing in an ensemble, one should play “in tune” with others. That may mean matching people that are out of tune, especially if you are in a musically subordinate role. In a big band, for example, the lead alto player should match the intonation of the lead trumpet player, and the rest of the sax section should match the lead alto. Whether that’s in tune with the piano is irrelevant, except maybe for the trumpet player.

My understanding of stretch tuning on a piano is that it is due to the out of tune harmonic frequencies of a tightly stretched string, and that the stretched notes sound more “in tune”, even though the fundamental pitch is too high or low.

This is the crux of my points above. It’s all very well talking about exact measurements but they don’t exist in mixed ensemble playing.

 

[lydian]

It's not trivia and it's not limited to violinists. It's a big issue for lower pitched instruments, and affects woodwind, brass, and strings. It's only 'not' an issue if you're unaware of the differences. Violins, violas, and cellos tune their strings to perfect fifths not ET fifths. Basses are tuned in fourths.

Luckily, 4ths and 5ths are essential identical in both systems, only 2 cents off. It's 3rds and 6ths that are significantly different. And those we probably tweak with our ears to be more Just. There's a 3rd in guitar tuning which some players, like James Taylor do indeed tune on the Just side.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Luckily, 4ths and 5ths are essential identical in both systems, only 2 cents off. It's 3rds and 6ths that are significantly different. And those we probably tweak with our ears to be more Just. There's a 3rd in guitar tuning which some players, like James Taylor do indeed tune on the Just side.

Yes, they're not out by much, but enough to hear the beat.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Luckily, 4ths and 5ths are essential identical in both systems, only 2 cents off. It's 3rds and 6ths that are significantly different. And those we probably tweak with our ears to be more Just. There's a 3rd in guitar tuning which some players, like James Taylor do indeed tune on the Just side.

Depending upon fret placement / workmanship and which chords are being played in a piece (how far the harmony goes) the guitar would usually require some sort of compromise in tuning. This, imo, would be determined more by the particular piece of music rather than a one size fits all.

 

[Vetinari]

If two identical instruments are perfectly in tune each time they play the same pitch there is a good chance that every time that note is played there will be a difference in phase. First time may be perfectly in phase, second time 180 degrees out of phase, next time 45 degrees, so the percieved sound mabe slightly different each time.

 

[Woodpad]

I have never seen that two identical trumpets with opposite phases silence each other.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have never seen that two identical trumpets with opposite phases silence each other.

The only time I’ve heard phasing effects from a unison owls when it is the same person overdubbing. And never ever complete phase cancellation. To get over any of these slight phasing instances I might detune and/or delay one (or both) of the tracks

 

[Pete Effamy]

The only time I’ve heard phasing effects from a unison owls when it is the same person overdubbing. And never ever complete phase cancellation. To get over any of these slight phasing instances I might detune and/or delay one (or both) of the tracks

Logic Pro has a polarity 180 change button on the Utility Gain insert

 

[TootSweet]

Two notes played a tempered third away are about 15 cents off a just third (different for a major or a minor third third, I don't remember the exact values). This difference is clear if one is not deaf.