Playing the saxophone Octave C1 instead of C2?

[cappers]

I have been practising Alfie's Theme (Sonny Rollins) in Cmajor for tenor.

The opening bars are E | A-C-E2-C D2 C-D2 | E2-C-D2-D2 C-D2-A-E | A-C-E2-C D2 C-D2 | D2 C-E2 E2 E |
Rather than using C2 to octave E1 I tried octave C1 to octave E1 to octave C1 to octave D1 etc.

It sounded ok and was quicker and easier under the fingers, less flapping around!
Is this correct and a normal method for notes like this?
TIA

 

[Pete Thomas]

What do you mean by octave E1? E1 an octave higher is E2.

 

[cappers]

Apologies. I wrote octave E1 to refer to fingering a low E plus octave key.
I probably should have written "Rather than using C2 to E2 I tried octave plus C1 to E2 to octave plus C1 to D2 etc.
So don't have to worry about the octave key and most fingers are down through the phrase rather than 1 to 5/6 + octave to 1 etc.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's called alternative fingering. Whatever works, sounds right and fits.

C1 will overblow to C2 G2 C3.

LH OXO RH XXO is an easy starting point for transition from C2 to E2.

If you're finding it awkward to add the octave key it may be hand position. Position the thumb to rock onto the octave key. If you're having to lift and replace, the key may need adjusting.

 

[lydian]

No, that isn't a thing that most players would do. You should learn the normal way.

 

[cappers]

If you're finding it awkward to add the octave key it may be hand position. Position the thumb to rock onto the octave key. If you're having to lift and replace, the key may need adjusting.

I don't find the octave key awkward and I don't have a problem playing it LH OXO RH XXO LH OXO RH XXX etc.
Just noticed that it could be done another way.
Thanks

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just noticed that it could be done another way.

Absolutely I think it’s fine to use alternative fingerings in any context but I think they should be used for the sound or effect, and not purely to make the fingering easier.

 

[Dr G]

I have been practising Alfie's Theme (Sonny Rollins) in Cmajor for tenor.

The opening bars are E | A-C-E2-C D2 C-D2 | E2-C-D2-D2 C-D2-A-E | A-C-E2-C D2 C-D2 | D2 C-E2 E2 E |
Rather than using C2 to octave E1 I tried octave C1 to octave E1 to octave C1 to octave D1 etc.

It sounded ok and was quicker and easier under the fingers, less flapping around!
Is this correct and a normal method for notes like this?
TIA

As I understand your nomenclature, you are saying that D2 is D1 played with the octave key. That is the “normal” way to play D2. How else do you normally play D2?

C2 played with C1 + octave is known as “long C” - not a common fingering.

I don’t see a lot of “flapping around” as necessary with this phrase. Just start slow and clean, then speed up gradually as you maintain form.

 

[skeller047]

I was about a year in to serious clarinet studies when I took up saxophone at the age of 13. Because of my exposure to Klose and Rose etudes and exercises on clarinet, I got a copy of the Paul DeVille Universal Method for Saxophone.

One of the early sections in this large book is exercises over the “break”. In other words, going from notes fingered with the left hand alone, to notes fingered with both hands, plus the octave key. And back again. Coordinating finger movements so that these transitions are smooth and seamless is difficult. There is a similar issue on clarinet, so I was familiar with the concept, and I spent several weeks working on this section. (NB - it’s still an issue 65 years later LOL.)

C2 “long fingering” is an alternative, but it is notorious for being stuffy sounding and out of tune. I often use long fingering C2 as a tonal alternative, playing repeated tones alternating fingerings with normal C2 for effect (“la-da-la-da-la-da-BOP—dit-doo-wah” kind of phrases). Otherwise I avoid it.

Spend a few minutes daily working on making these transitions between registers smooth. It’s good for your breath control as well as good for your finger dexterity.

 

[cappers]

To reiterate, I don't have a problem playing the break, coordinating the octave key, finger dexterity and voicing.

I was just experimenting and found 'long C' which I thought was a tad esaier and quicker on that particular phrase.

Thanks to everybody for their responses.

 

[turf3]

The so-called long C fingering isn't always reliable. Even with the octave key, you've got to voice it just so, and in the heat of the moment it might come out as a split tone rather than clear. The bell key notes on all my horns prefer to overblow an octave and a fifth to overblowing an octave; and C is kind of like that.

 

[Targa]

It does produce a nice echo though.

 

[Pete Effamy]

As a rule of thumb, alternative fingerings are there when the speed of transition is just too much for a regular fingering, but when used, the speed will disguise the shortcomings of the alternative fingering.

Clarinet-wise; there are many such fingerings, but the majority would not suffice as a “proper “ note tonally.

I think the sax is less like the clarinet in this respect but the example here of using the overblown low C as a bona-fide note (mid-stave C) shouldn’t be considered, as the regular fingering isn’t / shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Handy for trills too.

 

[cappers]

As said I don't find it a problem and I can play the E ACEC D | EC DD CDAE riff with the 'normal' fingering.
I asked because from my reading, C2 has three basic fingerings: LH2, LH1 with side key, and low C with octave key. As the octave key is used for the Es and Ds I wondered if 'long C' would be ok. Now I understand.
Thank you.

 

[lydian]

@cappers, you got it. In the examples you gave, long C would be an unusual choice. As others have said, it's mainly used for a special effect (as in @skeller047 's example) or an especially difficult case like a trill over the break or something like that. @Colin the Bear apparently uses it all the time for whatever reason, but most players use it infrequently.

Is long C ok? Yeah, it's fine, if that's the sound you want and you can play it in tune. It's not ok if you're just avoiding learning how to cross the break.

 

[turf3]

And when we talk about "the break" on saxophone it's a whole different ball of wax than on clarinet.

Clarinet players have to deal with the throat tones, which are made in a wide short tube, transitioning to the bottom of the clarion range with a long narrow tube, AND going from the equivalent of the sax palm keys to the equivalent of sax bell keys - except it's right in the middle of the instrument's range and you play across that break CONSTANTLY. Going from all-open C# to all-closed D on saxophone is small potatoes by comparison.

Just play the notes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I use over blown Bell notes for tuning, for effect and for trills. Some of the silly repetitive songs we play need something to spice up a solo. It can be quite fun if the wrong note comes out.