Playing the saxophone 5ths and extended chords

[cappers]

I've been studying chord extensions and notice that 9th/11th/13th chords normally omit the 5th. Why?
Is it because the 5th has less chord quality than the root, 3rd and 7th so isn't missed.
Or does including the 5th make the chord too busy? I can see how that might be on piano or guitar, but does it matter on sax where the notes are played sequentuially?
Thank you.

 

[wakyct]

I can see how that might be on piano or guitar, but does it matter on sax where the notes are played sequentuially?

I imagine it depends on who you're playing with. For example the bassist might play the root and 5th a lot of the time so maybe you don't emphasize the 5th as much.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've been studying chord extensions and notice that 9th/11th/13th chords normally omit the 5th. Why?
Is it because the 5th has less chord quality than the root, 3rd and 7th so isn't missed.

Basically yes. Any of those chords still have their defining quality without the 5th. This applies to accompanying chord instruments or when voicing a chord for an ensemble

but does it matter on sax where the notes are played sequentuially?

That’s a different situation if it’s melodic impro, any note of the chord is optional as you never have to play the actual chord. You can omit chord notes or use non chord notes.

 

[turf3]

Pianists and guitarists have limited numbers of fingers.

 

[Zasterz]

Pianists and guitarists have limited numbers of fingers.

I still wouldn’t include the 5th in an extended chord voicing I wrote into midi. (Who has infinite fingers.) Clutter is a bigger reason than number of fingers.

 

[lydian]

Pretty much what @turf3 said. When I play piano or ukulele or write for sax quartets, horn sections, vocal groups, leaving out the 5th gives me room for adding color tones like 9, 11 and 13. If I have unlimited voices, I'll leave it in of course.

The best way for you to understand is just play some chords on piano or guitar with and without the 5th and see if you hear a significant difference.

 

[progger]

Is it because the 5th has less chord quality than the root, 3rd and 7th so isn't missed.

I think this is very close to the mark, although I wouldn't say the 5th has "less chord quality" (all intervals have quality and I love all my interval children equally, I don't play favorites! Just kidding, #4 is obviously the best). But it's generally not a determinant of the overall quality of the chord unless it's raised or lowered. So the 5th is much more important in, for example, a diminished or half-diminished chord than in a more straightforward major, minor, or dominant chord (although the dominant quality is wide open for abusive alteration, as we know).

The perfect fifth is the closest overtone, in any pitch, from its fundamental after the first octave. So roots and fifths can blend in with each other so well that, depending on the instrument/orchestration, the listener might not even notice if the fifth is present in a chord voicing. That makes it a safe choice to skip if you need to do any textural cleanup. Sparser voicings in pianos/guitars can be powerful and useful, and they can be "cleaner" in an ensemble than a denser voicing. As you say, the quality of most chords can be established with the root, third, and seventh, in the absence of a diminished or augmented fifth.

Melodically, bigger intervals – while usually more challenging – can also be very powerful and effective tools. Melodies and harmonies that use lots of fourths and fifths can be really great and tend to be counterintuitive to learn, at first. Playing up and down a quartal guitar or piano voicing melodically on a saxophone can be a good way to practice incorporating larger intervals into improvised melodies.

 

[skeller047]

Unless the 5th is altered (diminished or augmented), it almost never adds anything to a chord. As @progger points out, the fifth is part of the natural overtone series of the root, and often just blends in with the sound of the root. The third and 7th are what determine the chord type (again, assuming the 5th is not altered). The 9th, 11th and 13th are added color tones. So when deciding how to voice a chord for an ensemble (or at a piano or guitar key- or fret-board) leaving out the 5th is often a sensible thing to do.

Additionally, arrangers (and accompanists) often like to choose voicings that have consonant structures at the top. Examples - a major triad (b9-3-13 in a dominant 13th) or stacked fourths (3-6-9 in a major 6th chord). So leaving out the fifth in these cases helps the voicing ring out, and doesn’t change the quality of the chord.