Intonation Front E3 Fingering on My Baritone is 40 cents sharp

[rhysonsax]

I have been playing a lot of baritone recently, both in big band and in two saxophone quartets. Recently I was working on a new sax quartet arrangement with a tricky soli section that has the baritone playing a lot up in the third octave - palm keys but not altissimo.

One passage I was struggling with and worked out that it would be easier playing front F3 (octave key, front F and A finger) and front E3 (add the G finger). That's a very common fingering that is shown in lots of fingering charts and I have used for years on alto and tenor. But this E3 is very sharp on my baritone, something like 40 cents. The palm key fingering of E3 is spot on in tune, but is a bit awkward in this particular passage.

My baritone is a Selmer Serie III that is in tip top condition, having been worked on by Steve Howard. Any thoughts on why this fingering isn't working on this instrument ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

Any thoughts on why this fingering isn't working on this instrument ?

Yes because it’s a (aux) top E on baritone.

having been worked on by Steve Howard.

I vaguely remember discussing this with Steve and if I recall he mentioned that fingering often tends to be a bit iffy (to use the technical term).

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think this is fairly common, and most likely to do with how far the palm E opens Rhys.

You may be able to use two hands in an unorthodox way to try and finger the note with less opening - maybe even just not pushing the G key (which gives front E) down properly, thus not overly opening / venting.

If that works, and without staring at my sax, there will be adjustment either at the top aux key - and it could be opening the F too far too - of perhaps the amount of cork / mechanism which opens the E.

Or, it could be overall intonation and maybe check by way of the overtones, or it could be a baritone thing, and the extremes get a bit wild and you need to compensate when playing.

Before someone with proper knowledge comes in, try those.

 

[rhysonsax]

Yes because it’s a (aux) top E on baritone.

What does that mean - is the mechanism different in some way to alto and tenor ?

Or maybe you're suggesting that fingered note is often dodgy on bari. I will have a look at the opening, as suggested by @Pete Effamy .

Rhys

 

[Stephen Howard]

…he’d admit to that 🥸😊

😛

 

[rhysonsax]

I've looked at the bari mechanism again and also compared its behaviour to my tenor. Playing F3 with the front F fingering is in tune and opens the F palm key a normal amount. Adding the G finger to play E3 obviously closes the G pad (if that's the right name for it), doesn't affect the F palm key opening and also closes the top octave key and opens the lower one.

Mechanically the tenor does exactly the same thing and is adequately in tune both for F3 and E3.

I haven't blown the bari again as my son is working at the moment, but will do that this evening and experiment with only partially closing the G (wouldn't that make it sharper rather than flatter ?) and also adding a finger or two on the right hand.

Rhys

 

[lydian]

What is a normal amount? For me, front E, F and altissimo work best if F just barely cracks open.

Another thing to try is closing more holes, like adding your right middle finger (F#) or index and alt F#.

 

[rhysonsax]

What is a normal amount? For me, front E, F and altissimo work best if F just barely cracks open.

Another thing to try is closing more holes, like adding your right middle finger (F#) or index and alt F#.

Thanks for that.

Well, I meant it opens up the palm F like opening the palm F, so I suppose that is "fully" as set by the foot on the palm key. So that is considerably more than "just barely cracks open". That goes for both this baritone and my tenor, both of which tune well on front F.

Yes, I had mentioned adding a finger or two of the right hand but maybe more as an aid to diagnosis than having to learn a new fingering just for this bari.

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

What is a normal amount? For me, front E, F and altissimo work best if F just barely cracks open.

Another thing to try is closing more holes, like adding your right middle finger (F#) or index and alt F#.

Agree with this. I think it's in the (?) Rasher, perhaps not... that French bloke.. book about the F key acting like an octave key and that it shouldn't open much at all. Sorry, without checking I'm relying on an old brain...

 

[Colin the Bear]

I don't think front F should open as much as palm key F. The cork should be adjustable or has something fallen off. Shim it with cork, or add a stopper underneath it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

What does that mean - is the mechanism different in some way to alto and tenor ?

No it’s the same mechanism as far as I know

Or maybe you're suggesting that fingered note is often dodgy on bari.

Yes.

 

[lydian]

Thanks for that.

Well, I meant it opens up the palm F like opening the palm F, so I suppose that is "fully" as set by the foot on the palm key. So that is considerably more than "just barely cracks open". That goes for both this baritone and my tenor, both of which tune well on front F.

Yes, I had mentioned adding a finger or two of the right hand but maybe more as an aid to diagnosis than having to learn a new fingering just for this bari.

Rhys

You've got two options - reduce the F opening or learn a different fingering.

 

[rhysonsax]

You've got two options - reduce the F opening or learn a different fingering.

As I said, the palm key E is in tune and I know that one fine. It is just a bit awkward in this one passage but I can probably work at that.

I can experiment some more and see whether reducing the F opening does improve the tuning of E3 without degrading that of F3 or its tone.

Rhys

 

[rhysonsax]

Out of interest I have checked the front F on my soprano, alto, tenor and on all of them it opens the F palm key "fully" - certainly way more than "just barely cracks open".

Am I misunderstanding what you meant @lydian ?

What do our esteemed techs think ? @Stephen Howard , @PigSquealer , @Griff ?

Rhys

 

[lydian]

Well, less is more in my personal experience. I adjust all of mine down because it works much better for me. Since you learned to play that way, you've made it work. But now on this bari, there's no way around it. Super easy to test yourself. Doesn't really matter what anyone says, it either works or it doesn't. My money is on a small opening fixing it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Out of interest I have checked the front F on my soprano, alto, tenor and on all of them it opens the F palm key "fully"

Generally should work best when only open very slightly. It is working purely as a vent key like an octave key and not like a normal key. It often works best without the octave key pressed because that can interfere with it being a vent key.

Venting the aux F
Note that because the aux F is purely a vent key to create an overtone, it often works best when only open very slightly.
Tips 1: Auxiliary F with no aux key - Taming The Saxophone
In my Saxophone High Tones book by Eugene Rousseau, he actually advise a modification to make the aux F open less in order to improve the note

 

[Nick Wyver]

You could try fingering G and using the top F# key as a vent.

 

[SuperAction80]

Yes because it’s a (aux) top E on baritone.


I vaguely remember discussing this with Steve and if I recall he mentioned that fingering often tends to be a bit iffy (to use the technical term).

The fingering is a bit iffy on most pitches and horns. On tenor, it's my litmus test to decide whether I like the horn or not. Being flat is usually a venting issue. Too sharp, that's more complicated. It's usually a sign that the neck bore, neck tonehole placement, or neck tonehole size is less than ideal. I think that the same acoustic properties apply to bari, but look at the slew of variables in that thing. Baritones have a complicated system before you get to the stack keys. You would think that Selmer would have this all ironed out by the Serie III. You would think. Stephen most certainly knows what he's doing, so you can rule the setup variable out. In this case, it's either manipulate your voicing to get it to work, change your mouthpiece/reed combo (unlikely the problem since I'm assuming that Stephen came to his conclusions by testing the horn with his setup), or swap out the neck. Compare it with another Serie III, a Serie II, a Yamaha, or anything else that fits into that receiver until the problem goes away. If this were a tenor, I'd assume that the octave pip was drilled a bit too big. Since this is a bari, and I've never come across this problem on the pitch, I'm shooting in the dark. It's still worth a try.

Actually, cheaper test. Take a piece of Scotch or painter's tape. Cover up an 8th of the octave pip, and see if the problem goes away. If it's still there, cover a fourth. Go up to half, and see if this works itself out without having an adverse effect on the rest of the range. Then, if the problem remains, try the same with the body tube octave pip. If that still doesn't work, try the same experiment with both pips simultaneously.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Actually, cheaper test. Take a piece of Scotch or painter's tape. Cover up an 8th of the octave pip, and see if the problem goes away. If it's still there, cover a fourth. Go up to half, and see if this works itself out without having an adverse effect on the rest of the range. Then, if the problem remains, try the same with the body tube octave pip. If that still doesn't work, try the same experiment with both pips simultaneously.

Clarinet players (Thea King I think) put Blue Tak in some tone holes

 

[SuperAction80]

Clarinet players (Thea King I think) put Blue Tak in some tone holes

My first reaction was to suggest plumber's putty, but with the size of the pads and toneholes in question, I figured that a stealth approach was more appropriate. But just wait. If this doesn't isolate where the problem is, then we're most certainly going to look at those palm key toneholes. One is either too open, or at least one chimney is too short. I'd assume that a tonehole is too open first, because I'm giving Selmer QC SOME credit.