Theory & Impro Why E sharp and not F??? - enharmonic?

[peter_fitton]

Now I'm not all that clued up on musical theory but I'm pretty confident that the very basic stuff I do know is right.

Like, you can't have E# or Fb (and B# or Cb) because E to F, and B to C are only a semitone apart.

But in John O'Neill's Jazz Method book for tenor sax there's a tune called Trane Refrain and in bar 10 there it is, plain as day, an E# !!

The tune is in F# minor cos there are three #s in the key signature and O'Neill says it's a minor blues (if he hadn't said that I'd have just thought it was in A. lol).

When you play along to it it's clear that the note is actually an F, which is then followed by an F# (both in the sax's second register).

So is E# the correct way of writing F in this key? And if so, er, why? Or could it just be a misprint?

Yours very confused.

Peter

 

[peter_fitton]

Um, it just occurs to me that since F is sharp in the key then the only way you could write an F natural in it would be to put a flat sign before an F if you didn't want to sharpen an E.

I think this goes down as one of those "everything you know is wrong" moments :cry:

Peter

 

[Simon]

Hi Pete

Yep, cos the note is E# (the leading note). Sure it is the same as F natural but in the key and the chord being sounded, technically it's written as e#.

If it was a c# minor blues, there'd be a B# as the leading note.

Tricky keys, but there yer go - saxophone = sharps

Simon

 

[peter_fitton]

Thanks Simon 🙂

Cheers

Peter

 

[AndyW]

Here's why.
all of the common 7-note scales lke the major(s) and the various minors use each of the letters A,B,C,D,E,F,G once and only once in their note-names, partly so that the scale can be written with one note to each line or space, using the appropriate key signature.
The letters are in order when ascending the scale, and A follows G.

so if the key is F# major:
the 7th note must be named
some sort of E - an E# in this case.

for Gb major: the 7th note must be an F of some kind - F natural,
but note that since the 3rd note is Bb,
the 4th must be some kind of C - a Cb

 

[peter_fitton]

Thanks Andy. It is all starting to make sense now I must admit.

Peter

 

[onecat]

E sharp is the "enharmonic equivalent" of F, so it sounds the same, but is written differently. The point of writing notes differently has to do with how the music is written, scales, key signatures, etc. to make it easier to read, as others have explained. It's a little strange when first encountered... of course there is no E#, it is F, but it is written as E#.

 

[philthd]

of course, from a physics/temperament perspective the notes E# and F are actually very slightly different, but not more so than any other pair of enharmonically equivalent notes

 

[Pete Thomas]

I was going through the archives and found this little gem. Small thread but nice to see enharmonics so well explained and a lightbulb moment for OP. And of course today is Thread Revival Saturday.

 

[turf3]

of course, from a physics/temperament perspective the notes E# and F are actually very slightly different, but not more so than any other pair of enharmonically equivalent notes

This is not true if you tune your instruments to equal temperament, as has been the case for close on to 300 years now.

Now if you are playing notes that are higher harmonics of lower fundamentals, higher than an octave, then you can (in theory, and certainly on brass instruments) make a given note as a higher harmonic of more than one lower fundamental note, and if your physical instrument is so constructed that the actual higher harmonics come EXACTLY at the theoretical ratio, then you can come up with a scenario that gives different frequencies for E# and F. Given that there are VERY FEW musical instruments that generate the higher harmonics at exactly the theoretical ratios, given the fact that all wind instruments have the player manipulating tuning all the time, this is pretty much a purely theoretical concern not a real world one.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is not true if you tune your instruments to equal temperament, as has been the case for close on to 300 years now.

Unless it’s an instrument that isn’t bound by exact equal temperament on all (or any) if the notes, such as strings, saxophone, voice, trombone to name a few

To tune saxophone to equal temperament you’d need to guarantee every note plays in tune to equal temperament. I certainly don’t guarantee that.

 

[ESJohn]

Knowing all but nothing regarding music theory, my memory was jogged by this thread. We were handed this a few years back for some reason so I thought I would share it. The circle around 'F E#' was added today. I'll continue to read the comments above and below mine in the hopes of becoming a better musician.

 

[turf3]

Unless it’s an instrument that isn’t bound by exact equal temperament on all (or any) if the notes, such as strings, saxophone, voice, trombone to name a few

To tune saxophone to equal temperament you’d need to guarantee every note plays in tune to equal temperament. I certainly don’t guarantee that.

What I'm saying is that actual instruments don't play perfectly in tune to just temperament either. The overtones of actual instruments aren't the perfect integer multiples that the theory describes, because the instruments aren't those perfect idealized forms (a sax isn't a perfect cone tapering to a point, a flute isn't REALLY a tube open at both ends, a trombone isn't a cone).

In the equal temperament system, E# and F are intended to have the exact same pitch.

Now if we were to take a fantasy tenor saxophone which theoretically plays perfect integer-multiple overtones, finger low Bb (should be 116.54 Hz), then overblow it an octave (2 X 116.54 = 233.08 Hz), then another octave (2 x 233.08 = 4 x 116.54 = 466.16), and then overblow it one more level, that would be 5 X 116.54 Hz = 582.70 Hz which is a D that's somewhat flat to the equal temperament D. Or maybe it's an Ebb (double flat)?

Now let's play a low G on the same theoretically perfect horn (196.00 Hz), then overblow it an octave (2 x 196.00 = 392.00 Hz), then overblow it the fifth (3 x 196.00 = 588.00 Hz) which sounds a pretty much spot-on equal temperament D.

The equal-temperament system defines that D as 587.33 Hz.

However!

If you take an ACTUAL tenor saxophone, with an ACTUAL mouthpiece and reed on it, it's NOT going to overblow those perfect 2X, 3X, 4X, 5X overtones! So focusing on the fact that upper-partial notes derived from different fundamentals will have different theoretical frequencies, leaves out the fact that ALL the notes are going to deviate from the theoretical frequency.

In the real world, then, if two guys have the job of playing that high D on two tenor saxophones, one by fingering an overblown low Bb and the other by fingering an overblown low G, they will both adjust to make them sound in tune.

This is why the constant faint drumbeat of people that "equal temperament is out of tune" and "this other system is better" is a waste of time and a distraction. Equal temperament solved these issues, as well as the issue of enharmonics.

 

[mizmar]

.…use each of the letters A,B,C,D,E,F,G once and only once

Is such a simple and, occasionally, useful thing.

I'm not sure it's worth drowning it in other technicalities.

 

[ESJohn]

In the St. Louis Blues alto sax arrangement by F Henri Klickmann (1929), E# is used throughout and is tied to the F#. I suppose that it is the case due to the arrangement being written in concert F. Wouldn't it have to be written as an accidental otherwise?

 

[lydian]

Knowing all but nothing regarding music theory, my memory was jogged by this thread. We were handed this a few years back for some reason so I thought I would share it. The circle around 'F E#' was added today. I'll continue to read the comments above and below mine in the hopes of becoming a better musician.
View attachment 38485

Nice chart of all the major bebop scales!

 

[skeller047]

Nice chart of all the major bebop scales!

I think of those as dominant bebop scales. The major bebop scales add the flatted 6th…

 

[Tenor Viol]

Only fretted instruments (e.g. guitars) and fixed pitch instruments such as keyboards (unless specially tuned) are generally in ET.

Players of non-fretted string instrument (e.g. violin family), woodwind, and brass players, and singers, do not tune using ET but will adjust to be nearer to 'just' intonation. Barbershop singers do not use ET.

There are limitations of what you can do with instruments due to physics. The tone holes are fixed and the length of tubing is generally fixed. Those who play at a very high level will adjust tuning as they go along, e.g. by lipping notes up/down. Mostly this means flattening the major third of a chord, which in ET is too wide.

Some instruments have means of compensating for the changes in tuning as you go lower. My euphonium has three means of achieving this. A standard euphonium will be progressively more out-of-tune as you go down the scale as the tubing length is not long enough for the notes being played. The first adjustment is extra tubing added to the valves called 'compensating' tubing. The second is a fourth valve. The fourth valve is the equivalent of playing valves 1 and 3, but its tubing longer than 1+3. This brings low notes that would use 1&3 into better tune. The third method is a trigger mechanism. This is a lever operated mechanism which you can gradually depress and it moves the main tuning slide. It is used to adjust the tuning of the lowest notes. And unsurprisingly, instruments with the extra adjustments cost more (an entry level non-compensating euphonium from say Yamaha or Besson is around the £1k to £1.3k, whereas a compensating instrument with trigger is going to be in the £6k to £9k range).