Theory & Impro Why E sharp and not F? - enharmonic notes?

[skeller047]

In today’s popular music, with so many parts being played by electronic keyboard and fretted instruments, ET is de rigeur. That said, horn sections and vocal groups will often tune chords closer to natural tuning, aka just intonation. But the roots shift to match keys and guitars.

I haven’t worked in a pit in several decades, but so many musicals use electronic orchestration these days that ET rules. So maybe it makes sense for orchestras to partly base audition ratings on how close the candidate is to the digital tuner. I know some conservatories include training in tuning to ET, especially in their classical programs.

I remember as a kid being told by teachers, who had come up in the 1930s and 40s, that different keys were “brighter” (e.g. D and A) or “darker” (Db, Eb), and I wonder if this is a holdover from the days of various other tunings. Or if it’s a result of “stretch” tuning of pianos. I know that piano tuners I watched as a young man often only tuned a few notes to a strobe tuner, and did the rest by ear.

When playing with other horn players these days I often search for sonorities with the fewest “beats” on a sustained chord. These are certainly not ET…

 

[Pete Thomas]

That said, horn sections and vocal groups will often tune chords closer to natural tuning, aka just intonation. But the roots shift to match keys and guitars.

This is also my experience. There are combinations in which being at the same pitch with ET instruments is important - usually with same or similar timbre or very sparse orchestration. But often it is not necessary and can still sound good (or better) when using something either closer to just intonation or more blues like pitches (so-called blue notes).

Somewhere I demonstrated this with a recording that had two versions, one with the saxophone as played on the session and one with it tuned to ET. Although the line up included ET tuned instruments , many people preferred the “out of tune” take.

 

[Pete Effamy]

When playing with other horn players these days I often search for sonorities with the fewest “beats” on a sustained chord. These are certainly not ET…

Yeah interesting. Everyone listens / adjusts as soon as there are “beats” going on. The thing that used to happen a lot in my regular section was the presence of “third notes” or Difference Tones. They presented themselves like a buzzing / fly in the ear.

I suppose that whilst we all chase good intonation (and this might differ at times to being “in tune”), in larger ensembles we will have tuning errors on notes (we can’t all be perfect always) and there will be variations of tuning scale going on dependant upon what is happening at any one time.

We accept that strings are “out of tune “ and this gives them that lovely rich sound, but how out of tune is actually out of tune?

 

[Tenor Viol]

In today’s popular music, with so many parts being played by electronic keyboard and fretted instruments, ET is de rigeur. That said, horn sections and vocal groups will often tune chords closer to natural tuning, aka just intonation. But the roots shift to match keys and guitars.

I haven’t worked in a pit in several decades, but so many musicals use electronic orchestration these days that ET rules. So maybe it makes sense for orchestras to partly base audition ratings on how close the candidate is to the digital tuner. I know some conservatories include training in tuning to ET, especially in their classical programs.

I remember as a kid being told by teachers, who had come up in the 1930s and 40s, that different keys were “brighter” (e.g. D and A) or “darker” (Db, Eb), and I wonder if this is a holdover from the days of various other tunings. Or if it’s a result of “stretch” tuning of pianos. I know that piano tuners I watched as a young man often only tuned a few notes to a strobe tuner, and did the rest by ear.

When playing with other horn players these days I often search for sonorities with the fewest “beats” on a sustained chord. These are certainly not ET…

Yes, I think you're right. In ET there is no discernible difference in 'colour' between keys. That is a legacy from other tunings.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I suppose that whilst we all chase good intonation (and this might differ at times to being “in tune”),

Maybe it ought to be "appropriate" intonation. I discovered that when having to examine performances at uni. The other examiner decied a ska band horn section didn't have very good tuning and marked them down. I gave them very high marks and had to explain to him why.

We accept that strings are “out of tune “ and this gives them that lovely rich sound, but how out of tune is actually out of tune?

Strings may deliberately play with some sharp and some flat - aka (in regard to electronic effects) chorusing.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Maybe it ought to be "appropriate" intonation. I discovered that when having to examine performances at uni. The other examiner decied a ska band horn section didn't have very good tuning and marked them down. I gave them very high marks and had to explain to him why.

Strings may deliberately play with some sharp and some flat - aka (in regard to electronic effects) chorusing.

I think that some play with vibrato and some without at times too.

 

[Pete Thomas]

No but Im sure I mentioned this before. I was playing with an orchestra sustaining an F# note over a passage where the strings changed chord (something like a change from D to A♭7. It was mentioned during the playback that my note started in tune and went out of tune. TBH I hadn't been listening too intently at the time of the take so we did the take again with me listening carefully and I did detect the subtle change as they went to the A♭7 and adjust my F# at that point. Voila! In tune. (Not viola in tune🙂)

That's what happens when people don't play by ear.

Yes, but were keyboard (fixed tuning) instruments used?

There’s surely a problem here though. If playing something like a Claus Ogerman arrangement - lots of long notes where the chords gradually morph from one tonal point, through transition to another tonal point - the tuning of the long notes can’t keep going up and down

In this case it could well have been that there was a piano. Whether the strings were hearing it is a different matter (they often play with one headphone on, the other off with more of an ear on the leader.

 

[turf3]

Well, there's the way an instrument is constructed, which all modern instruments are designed based on the twelfth root of two, because you cannot predict which keys you're going to be playing in.

And then there's the way players manipulate the pitches they get out of the instrument, which is flexible. Depending on the context, players may choose to minimize beats (so, for example, a major third in a very diatonic/consonant part of a piece, say Mozart, they're probably going to want to minimize that clashing sound) and in other places they may choose to emphasize the clashing (a minor second in Prokofiev or Messiaen).

When instruments were built based on "preferred keys" so that certain notes in certain keys would be more consonant, and certain notes in certain keys would be less so, musicians STILL manipulated the pitches - but the more dissonant intervals were harder (or impossible) to force into consonance. With equal temperament, if you're manipulating pitches to minimize beats, you've got more or less the same amount of movement to apply for all intervals.

I think you would find very few working musicians who'd like to go back to pre-Boehm flutes or clarinets.