Theory & Impro Why E sharp and not F? - enharmonic notes?

[Pete Thomas]

Placing a natural followed by a flat (♮♭) will turn F# into an E, for one bar or until another accidental is encountered, whichever happens first.

I can’t think of any circumstance in which you would do that rather than write either E.

 

[Ivan]

I can’t think of any circumstance in which you would do that rather than write either E.

Absinthe

Or any mind altering spirits might do it

 

[Pete Thomas]

I can’t think of any circumstance in which you would do that rather than write either E.

Well there is a case if you wanted to write a G^O and be enharmonically correct. Personally I don’t with diminished chords but I do see the point in being correct.

 

[Pete Thomas]

On the other hand cancelling an F# to make an a finished accidental F♮♭ I think most people would just write F♭ if they wanted to be enharmonically correct. I might argue there is no need for the ♮.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Placing a natural followed by a flat (♮♭) will turn F# into an E, for one bar or until another accidental is encountered, whichever happens first.

Any player would be confused by this and think that it’s a typo - either a natural or a flat. In a rehearsal they would stop and seek clarification. For any one note, there can only be one accidental, for which there is adequate provision:

bb
b
Natural
#
##

 

[Tenor Viol]

So if you believe that the toneholes in a woodwind instrument aren't positioned to give each note a frequency that's higher than the one immediately below, by a factor of the twelfth root of two; tell me, what is the "base key" of a saxophone? And if you believe that they don't use the twelfth root of two to locate the tone holes, on what evidence do you believe this? And how do you explain Theobald Boehm who wrote very explicitly that he used the twelfth root of two, which has been confirmed by Dayton C Miller's measurements of dozens of Boehm's flutes?

I said "They do not tune" meaning the player adjusts the sound to be 'in tune'.

Yes, the basic spacing of holes on a woodwind instrument are nowadays based around ET. ET is an awful system, designed for keyboard instruments, producing badly out of tune major thirds. Unfortunately, there is no simple alternative to ET because an instrument in 'just' intonation would only be 'in tune' for a small number of keys.

ET is a compromise, which is "OK" a lot of the time for most people. But it's a compromise and at times results in unpleasant sounds.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I said "They do not tune" meaning the player adjusts the sound to be 'in tune'.

Yes, the basic spacing of holes on a woodwind instrument are nowadays based around ET. ET is an awful system, designed for keyboard instruments, producing badly out of tune major thirds. Unfortunately, there is no simple alternative to ET because an instrument in 'just' intonation would only be 'in tune' for a small number of keys.

ET is a compromise, which is "OK" a lot of the time for most people. But it's a compromise and at times results in unpleasant sounds.

I don’t believe that the vast majority hear “unpleasant sounds” from Equal Temperament tuning. Those that do were either born with an affliction to it (unlikely) or became interested in other tunings and have effectively taught themselves to be uncomfortable with it.

Do people find the recordings of Bill Evan’s and Martha Argerich to be unpleasant or unlistenable?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Those that do were either born with an affliction to it (unlikely) or became interested in other tunings and have effectively taught themselves to be uncomfortable with it.

I think it may be more subconscious. Not that they've actually taught themselves, but that they have got u8sed to using just intonation and so have become subconsciousy more attuned to it.

I can hear just being better sounding but only when I directlly compare. But I may be an odd case because I hear a lot of technically out of tune notes as OK or even better.

Seems like a good time to drag out the photo of my wife's hapsichord with split keys for example D#/E♭

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think it may be more subconscious. Not that they've actually taught themselves, but that they have got u8sed to using just intonation and so have become subconsciousy more attuned to it.

I can hear just being better sounding but only when I directlly compare. But I may be an odd case because I hear a lot of technically out of tune notes as OK or even better.

Seems like a good time to drag out the photo of my wife's hapsichord with split keys for example D#/E♭

Yes I agree about direct comparisons, but that’s akin to “lab conditions “ music. I’m sure most of the orchestra don’t cringe whenever they have to comply with ET every time a piano concerto is on the programme.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes I agree about direct comparisons, but that’s akin to “lab conditions “ music. I’m sure most of the orchestra don’t cringe whenever they have to comply with ET every time a piano concerto is on the programme.

No but Im sure I mentioned this before. I was playing with an orchestra sustaining an F# note over a passage where the strings changed chord (something like a change from D to A♭7. It was mentioned during the playback that my note started in tune and went out of tune. TBH I hadn't been listening too intently at the time of the take so we did the take again with me listening carefully and I did detect the subtle change as they went to the A♭7 and adjust my F# at that point. Voila! In tune. (Not viola in tune🙂)

 

[Pete Effamy]

No but Im sure I mentioned this before. I was playing with an orchestra sustaining an F# note over a passage where the strings changed chord (something like a change from D to A♭7. It was mentioned during the playback that my note started in tune and went out of tune. TBH I hadn't been listening too intently at the time of the take so we did the take again with me listening carefully and I did detect the subtle change as they went to the A♭7 and adjust my F# at that point. Voila! In tune. (Not viola in tune🙂)

Yes, but were keyboard (fixed tuning) instruments used?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes, but were keyboard (fixed tuning) instruments used?

I can't remember.

 

[LostCircuits]

That's what happens when people don't play by ear.
Vanitas vanitatis et omnia vanitas!
Nice zombie thread, though!

 

[Pete Effamy]

No but Im sure I mentioned this before. I was playing with an orchestra sustaining an F# note over a passage where the strings changed chord (something like a change from D to A♭7. It was mentioned during the playback that my note started in tune and went out of tune. TBH I hadn't been listening too intently at the time of the take so we did the take again with me listening carefully and I did detect the subtle change as they went to the A♭7 and adjust my F# at that point. Voila! In tune. (Not viola in tune🙂)

There’s surely a problem here though. If playing something like a Claus Ogerman arrangement - lots of long notes where the chords gradually morph from one tonal point, through transition to another tonal point - the tuning of the long notes can’t keep going up and down

 

[Pete Effamy]

…and I meant to cite the slow movement of Gorecki Symphony #3 too.. but it took me 5 minutes to remember his name.. 🤨

 

[turf3]

There’s surely a problem here though. If playing something like a Claus Ogerman arrangement - lots of long notes where the chords gradually morph from one tonal point, through transition to another tonal point - the tuning of the long notes can’t keep going up and down

Or Debussy; or Beethoven; or Bach.

And this, boys and girls, is why equal temperament was devised.

 

[skeller047]

There are alternatives - Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier was written for an instrument in one of the “well” temperaments, not ET. In these, the fifths of different keys are tuned differently, with the aim of making the thirds better.

ET won, though it took a couple centuries. It was known, but not widely used, in the Baroque period. it wasn’t until the Romantics came in that it was widely accepted, and wasn’t universal until the 20th century.

Those of us who play overtones are keenly aware of the differences between “in tune” and “equal temperament”. I have heard that some orchestra auditions now check the auditee against a digital tuner. Being “in tune” with ET is now a required skill for professionals.

 

[Bokagee]

When I'm writing a score I'm not thinking enharmonics. F# major has an E# in it, Gb has a Cb, so that's what I write in the score. I'll look at those in review, and if it makes sense to do it I'll rewrite as an enharmonic, but most of the time it doesn't seem as if it'd be easier to read.

It gets to be kind of like feng shui. What effect do odd looking things on a part have on the player, even if subliminally? It's a thing to me. It's less of an issue using Sibelius these days than back in the day hand-copying with my trusty Pelikan 120, from score paper scrawled on with a stubby pencil. We actually studied calligraphy in music school, the proper way to draw out parts such that they'd not have unintended distractions.

Alpheus went out of business, of course, nobody to buy score paper and parts paper anymore.

 

[etc-etc]

Chopin etudes in original editions were occasionally having sharps, naturals and flats in the same bar, whether the key signature was C major or something else.

 

[Tenor Viol]

There are alternatives - Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier was written for an instrument in one of the “well” temperaments, not ET. In these, the fifths of different keys are tuned differently, with the aim of making the thirds better.

ET won, though it took a couple centuries. It was known, but not widely used, in the Baroque period. it wasn’t until the Romantics came in that it was widely accepted, and wasn’t universal until the 20th century.

Those of us who play overtones are keenly aware of the differences between “in tune” and “equal temperament”. I have heard that some orchestra auditions now check the auditee against a digital tuner. Being “in tune” with ET is now a required skill for professionals.

Yes, someone did an analysis of very early piano recordings and that showed that even at the turn of the C20th, pianos were not necessarily being tuned in ET. Voice recordings were even clearer with evidence of the distinction being made between diatonic and chromatic semi-tones (i.e. the ones that are part of a key versus accidentals). The latter was the case well into the C20th, but tends to be the preserve of the 'historic informed performance' brigade now.