Playing the saxophone What are the unique aspects to playing blues compared with other genres?

[BigMartin]

That's a bush league approach. Not going to work on "Autumn Leaves", or, for that matter, even on actual blues progressions like Straight no Chaser, or Nows the Time, or any number of other tunes that deviate from the I7, IV7, V7 pattern.

What's wrong with the blues scale on Straight No Chaser? AFAIK, it's a straightforward 12-bar form with a ii-V-I turnaraound. I don't see why the ii chord would be a problem. It's not what Monk wrote in his melody, but for a chorus or two of solo, why not, as long as you use it imaginatively?

 

[JayeNM]

What happens though is that it's presented as a one size fits all approach, to get people improvising without having to take on the whole burden of chords, scales, and harmony. What sounds good when used sparingly over the three dom 7 chords of a basic blues progression, just sounds amateurish and bad when applied constantly to everything. That's a bush league approach. Not going to work on "Autumn Leaves", or, for that matter, even on actual blues progressions like Straight no Chaser, or Nows the Time, or any number of other tunes that deviate from the I7, IV7, V7 pattern.

This my comment that overuse of the blues scale is like taking your plate with steak, broccoli, potato, carrots and peas and just pouring ketchup all over it. Keep the ketchup for your French fries.

I would say that is more a complete misunderstanding. By the utilizer.

The way I have seen it, and the way others have suggested it, is in context of a newer player being confused or astray on how to start to learn improvising.
A boilerplate suggestion, and a good one, IS "start with the blues scale (with the implication - on blues progression tunes)".

Still great advice. Sometimes the parenthetical aspect can get left out in the communication...

But if someone then tries to just improv on a blues scale over tunes of OTHER/DIFFERENT CHORD PROGRESSIONS , then someone missed the point that blues scale anchoring works only for blues tunes. Pretty big misunderstanding.

 

[turf3]

What's wrong with the blues scale on Straight No Chaser? AFAIK, it's a straightforward 12-bar form with a ii-V-I turnaraound. I don't see why the ii chord would be a problem. It's not what Monk wrote in his melody, but for a chorus or two of solo, why not, as long as you use it imaginatively?

Because the rest of the rhythm section is almost certainly going to be playing more diatonically than that.

Again, the blues scale has its place. I'm not talking about the intermittent use of those notes for the "fonky" feel; I do this all the time. I'm talking about the indiscriminate running up and down those 5, or 6, depending on how one chooses to define it, notes - applied as an all-purpose recipe for "ooh, ooh, look at me Ma, I'm playin' the blues!" rather than paying attention to the actual changes and deciding what to do on the spot.

 

[JayeNM]

What's wrong with the blues scale on Straight No Chaser? AFAIK, it's a straightforward 12-bar form with a ii-V-I turnaraound. I don't see why the ii chord would be a problem. It's not what Monk wrote in his melody, but for a chorus or two of solo, why not, as long as you use it imaginatively?

Same for "Now's the Time"...one of the quintessential 'starter jazz soloist' tunes there is...no disservice done sticking to a blues scale solo there, imho

 

[JSL]

What's wrong with the blues scale on Straight No Chaser? AFAIK, it's a straightforward 12-bar form with a ii-V-I turnaraound. I don't see why the ii chord would be a problem. It's not what Monk wrote in his melody, but for a chorus or two of solo, why not, as long as you use it imaginatively?

I'd agree, if as you mention, "you use it imaginatively". It's really up to the player, but I generally wouldn't use blues scale licks throughout an entire chorus. Rather, I'd play more on the changes, sprinkling in an occasional blues scale lick where I think it would be effective. I like to work with the chords; there's so much you can do with dominant chords and the ii-V-I progression, that I'd play the changes.

 

[JayeNM]

Because the rest of the rhythm section is almost certainly going to be playing more diatonically than that.

Again, the blues scale has its place. I'm not talking about the intermittent use of those notes for the "fonky" feel; I do this all the time. I'm talking about the indiscriminate running up and down those 5, or 6, depending on how one chooses to define it, notes - applied as an all-purpose recipe for "ooh, ooh, look at me Ma, I'm playin' the blues!" rather than paying attention to the actual changes and deciding what to do on the spot.

Maybe, but a blues scale still "works"...it doesn't sound wrong...

 

[turf3]

I'll just put a couple of things here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJs2eCqhTN0&list=RDuJs2eCqhTN0&start_radio=1

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU4uCgsNMFI&list=RDNU4uCgsNMFI&start_radio=1

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX_5XPaJfv4&list=RDTX_5XPaJfv4&start_radio=1


Slathering the blues scale all over these would NOT work well.

Now, I grant you, none of these recordings would fall into "blues genre" as I've described it above (which is distinct from "a bluesy feel" or "a usually 12 bar, three-line form").

 

[Nick Wyver]

Not really my field even though I seem to end up playing a lot of 12 bars. Anyway, I think everyone gets too hung up on notes when what’s probably more important is the rhythm, the feel of the music, use of dynamics, articulation, etc. It’s a lot easier to work on these aspects if you restrict your note choice. It’s perfectly possible to make the ‘correct’ choice of notes and still sound remarkably unbluesy. Likewise, it’s perfectly possible to make all the ‘wrong’ notes sound really bluesy.

 

[turf3]

How about it, is THIS "blues"?

You know this kind of discussion gets kind of silly after a while and I think we might have achieved it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFzbjEcgodg&list=RDBFzbjEcgodg&start_radio=1


And I get the distinct impression Rev. Gary Davis isn't confining himself to the "blues scale":

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_AJifsE2eQ&list=RDq_AJifsE2eQ&start_radio=1

 

[turf3]

One last - if you don't think Charlie Parker was a stone blues player, I don't know what to say to you - and HE plays the changes!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubmw5jvRvZU&list=RDUbmw5jvRvZU&start_radio=1

 

[BigMartin]

I'd agree, if as you mention, "you use it imaginatively". It's really up to the player, but I generally wouldn't use blues scale licks throughout an entire chorus. Rather, I'd play more on the changes, sprinkling in an occasional blues scale lick where I think it would be effective. I like to work with the chords; there's so much you can do with dominant chords and the ii-V-I progression, that I'd play the changes.

Agreed, but for a beginner, or if you choose to use it in contrast to some more beboppy stuff that came before, for example...

 

[BigMartin]

Because the rest of the rhythm section is almost certainly going to be playing more diatonically than that.

But that's kind of the point, isn't it? As soloist, you get to play stuff that crunches against the hamony if you want to.

 

[turf3]

But that's kind of the point, isn't it? As soloist, you get to play stuff that crunches against the hamony if you want to.

Let's try it again.

My issue is not with an experienced improvisor using the so-called "blues scale" where appropriate.

My issue is with teachers who imply that "the blues scale" is some kind of universal key to improvising, and inexperienced musicians who slather it all over everything rather than listening to what they're doing.

 

[JSL]

Agreed, but for a beginner, or if you choose to use it in contrast to some more beboppy stuff that came before, for example...

Well, yeah, but I don't think Pete was just gearing this to beginners. The topic is unique aspects of playing the blues. And just like with any other scale, using the blues scale or pentatonic scale in a musical/bluesy & effective way requires some experience. I do see your point that in the hands of an experienced improvisor (as turf points out) the choice to use 'blues scale vocab' vs a more bebop style is entirely up to the player. Either or both will work in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

And bebop aside, there is a lot you can do with those dominant chords for a strong blues feel. Something as simple as using the b3 leading tone into the maj 3rd of the chord can begin to lend a blues sound to the line, along with many other devices on those chords. Too hard to describe in words, but easy enough to hear & emulate from a good blues solo.

 

[turf3]

Well, yeah, but I don't think Pete was just gearing this to beginners. The topic is unique aspects of playing the blues. And just like with any other scale, using the blues scale or pentatonic scale in a musical/bluesy & effective way requires some experience. I do see your point that in the hands of an experienced improvisor (as turf points out) the choice to use 'blues scale vocab' vs a more bebop style is entirely up to the player. Either or both will work in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

And bebop aside, there is a lot you can do with those dominant chords for a strong blues feel. Something as simple as using the b3 leading tone into the maj 3rd of the chord can begin to lend a blues sound to the line, along with many other devices on those chords. Too hard to describe in words, but easy enough to hear & emulate from a good blues solo.

It's not just "bebop feel".

Here's a 12 bar blues, with absolutely ZERO bebop feel, and also not dependent on the blues scale.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CI-0E_jses&list=RD_CI-0E_jses&start_radio=1

 

[JSL]

It's not just "bebop feel".

Here's a 12 bar blues, with absolutely ZERO bebop feel, and also not dependent on the blues scale.

+1. Absolutely. I was referring to bebop in response to what BigMartin wrote (see what I quoted in my previous post: "beboppy stuff"). But I'm in no way implying that it's either the blues scale or bebop. See my point regarding soloing over the dominant chords with a blues feel. There's plenty of ways to achieve a blues sound using lines based on those chords, whether or not you add some bebop language (enclosures, passing tones, etc.).

 

[Pete Thomas]

Here's a 12 bar blues, with absolutely ZERO bebop feel, and also not dependent on the blues scale.

I would not call In The Mood a blues

 

[Targa]

I would not call In The Mood a blues

I was completely puzzled by that suggestion as well.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I was completely puzzled by that suggestion as well.

I wouldn’t say I was completely puzzled, but it’s down to your definition of blues. For me it is about feel, tempo, emotional content, melodic nuances etc and not purely on a chord sequence or structure.

 

[Targa]

I wouldn’t say I was completely puzzled, but it’s down to your definition of blues. For me it is about feel, tempo, emotional content, melodic nuances etc and not purely on a chord sequence or structure.

I cut that post a bit short, didn’t intend to assume you were puzzled rather that I was puzzled by that as well as other tunes that had been suggested as blues.
Despite all the learned dissertations by our esteemed colleagues my definition of the blues is still ‘I know it when I hear it’.