Saxophone beginners The Wind in the Willows - or Reeds

[Allophone]

For those of us who are beginners:
There is a lot of talk about reeds and building embouchure strength, and the strength of reeds, and the quality of reeds, and how they affect the tone, etc.

When considering/evaluating reeds: is it what is heard or is it more what the player feels?
Because -
There are multiple videos of multiple players demonstrating the differences between the various reeds and reed cuts and reed strengths.
And since it is important that we beginners spend time listening to the instrument, well......
I have spent several days (weeks) listening and listening to players demonstrating reed after reed.
In one great series the guy plays through at least 20 reeds.
And while the demonstrators may wax poetically after each session saying things like: "Well you can clearly hear how this reed blows freely" - or "this reed demonstrates remarkable increase in color." or "This reed clearly fulfills its promise for clarity."
Honestly they all sounded spot on the same to me.
Maybe the player felt something different --- But what I heard was the same.
They all sounded very good and all sounded the same - as long as it was the same player.
I turn up the volume - Sounds the same. Same same.
Maybe on one occasion there was a brief teeny tiny difference in timbre - but that easily could have been the player getting tired.

In all fairness - when I try to play different reeds with my amateur embouchure and student mouthpiece and ill fitting neck strap; I feel/find that some strengths, or cuts, or brands of reeds are simply more difficult to play.
They 'feel' more resistant - They 'feel' more obstinate.
It is not that they sound "more/less balanced" or "fuller/thinner" or have a "deeper more sonorous quality" -
It is more like "no sound" or they "squeak" or they "warble" vs "Hey this one actually plays"!

So my question ----
Is all of this poetry and bluster about reeds just much ado about nothing?
Do these different reeds actually have finite different intrinsic "qualities of sound"? -
Or--
More like The Wind in the Willows:
Is all of this talk and focus more akin to a sound based fantasy arising from what each unique player feels while interacting with each unique reed/story?
It is terribly challenging for a blind old mole to understand.

 

[skeller047]

For those of us who are beginners:
There is a lot of talk about reeds and building embouchure strength, and the strength of reeds, and the quality of reeds, and how they affect the tone, etc.

For the first year or so, just use a Rico 2 or 2 1/2 or 3, and don’t worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Choose the strength based on how easily you can play the full range of the horn, and how easily you can play both loud and soft. “Full range” means the lowest and highest notes you can reliably hit.

Signs of a reed being too soft:

• It’s hard to play loud, the reed closes off.
• It’s hard to play high, the notes sound dull, may be out of tune, and maybe want to jump down to a lower note.

Signs of a reed being too hard:

• It takes more air to start the sound
• It’s hard to play soft
• It’s hard to play lower notes
• Your face gets tired sooner

Tone quality and a natural feel should be your guide. Of course, what’s “natural” will change as you progress, and you may find that over time your preferred strength will change.

FWIW, I dislike the term “embouchure strength”. It’s too easy to assume you need “chops of steel”, which can lead to too much pressure on the reed (aka “biting”). I prefer “embouchure stamina” - how long you can play while keeping your embouchure at “just right” firmness.

It won’t hurt you to try other reeds, but do not expect a reed choice to make a huge difference in your abilities. I suggest Rico because they work, are reasonably consistent and can be bought in packs of 3, so it’s fairly cheap to try different strengths.

@Allophone, you are correct to assume that much of this concentration on the minute details of reeds is nonsense. It’s a personal preference, and there are a gazillion different reeds these days. My experience is that most reeds can be made to work, so I choose the ones that are easiest for me to get my sound right out of the box. I have many boxes that are partially full because I tried them and didn’t like them. But you need to develop some chops before you can make these decisions for yourself.

 

[Allophone]

But you need to develop some chops before you can make these decisions for yourself.

Thanks so very much. Some very straight up advice and the list of how to recognize too hard vs too soft --- that is really helpful.

 

[Pete Thomas]

When considering/evaluating reeds: is it what is heard or is it more what the player feels?

It can very often be what the player feels, or in some cases if they are an "inflencer or think they are") then it can just be they are scraping the barrel for another bit of clickbaity hype.

Don't be afraid to mention when you think the emperor has no clothes on, much of the time you are right and it could well be much ado about nothing.

 

[Hoosierken]

From what I have found, much depends on the mouthpiece. A reed strength that works well on one might not work well for another. Skeller has some really good advise on telling if it is too hard or too soft. Also, I have never been a fan of cane reeds. If cane were all that was available I would have quit a long time ago. I prefer a Legere Sig in say a 2.0 or 2.25. In the end it mostly comes down to preference and what you get use to. The MP is going to be more important than the reed for sound and feel so you might want to start there.

 

[Pete Effamy]

For the first year or so, just use a Rico 2 or 2 1/2 or 3, and don’t worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Choose the strength based on how easily you can play the full range of the horn, and how easily you can play both loud and soft. “Full range” means the lowest and highest notes you can reliably hit.

Signs of a reed being too soft:

• It’s hard to play loud, the reed closes off.
• It’s hard to play high, the notes sound dull, may be out of tune, and maybe want to jump down to a lower note.

Signs of a reed being too hard:

• It takes more air to start the sound
• It’s hard to play soft
• It’s hard to play lower notes
• Your face gets tired sooner

Tone quality and a natural feel should be your guide. Of course, what’s “natural” will change as you progress, and you may find that over time your preferred strength will change.

FWIW, I dislike the term “embouchure strength”. It’s too easy to assume you need “chops of steel”, which can lead to too much pressure on the reed (aka “biting”). I prefer “embouchure stamina” - how long you can play while keeping your embouchure at “just right” firmness.

It won’t hurt you to try other reeds, but do not expect a reed choice to make a huge difference in your abilities. I suggest Rico because they work, are reasonably consistent and can be bought in packs of 3, so it’s fairly cheap to try different strengths.

@Allophone, you are correct to assume that much of this concentration on the minute details of reeds is nonsense. It’s a personal preference, and there are a gazillion different reeds these days. My experience is that most reeds can be made to work, so I choose the ones that are easiest for me to get my sound right out of the box. I have many boxes that are partially full because I tried them and didn’t like them. But you need to develop some chops before you can make these decisions for yourself.

Perfect. Great players cover a multitude of horn, mouthpiece, reed and ligature manufacturers and can get the same results if they so wish from very different setups. So, there is no “best, or easiest “ setup. But I do concur with Skeller about using a pretty soft reed and a fairly close mouthpiece facing.

You may not stay on it (you may!), but it’s great to build strength and control from a setup that is playable and not too much effort.

 

[Argeebee]

For those of us who are beginners:
There is a lot of talk about reeds and building embouchure strength, and the strength of reeds, and the quality of reeds, and how they affect the tone, etc.

When considering/evaluating reeds: is it what is heard or is it more what the player feels?
Because -
There are multiple videos of multiple players demonstrating the differences between the various reeds and reed cuts and reed strengths.
And since it is important that we beginners spend time listening to the instrument, well......
I have spent several days (weeks) listening and listening to players demonstrating reed after reed.
In one great series the guy plays through at least 20 reeds.
And while the demonstrators may wax poetically after each session saying things like: "Well you can clearly hear how this reed blows freely" - or "this reed demonstrates remarkable increase in color." or "This reed clearly fulfills its promise for clarity."
Honestly they all sounded spot on the same to me.
Maybe the player felt something different --- But what I heard was the same.
They all sounded very good and all sounded the same - as long as it was the same player.
I turn up the volume - Sounds the same. Same same.
Maybe on one occasion there was a brief teeny tiny difference in timbre - but that easily could have been the player getting tired.

In all fairness - when I try to play different reeds with my amateur embouchure and student mouthpiece and ill fitting neck strap; I feel/find that some strengths, or cuts, or brands of reeds are simply more difficult to play.
They 'feel' more resistant - They 'feel' more obstinate.
It is not that they sound "more/less balanced" or "fuller/thinner" or have a "deeper more sonorous quality" -
It is more like "no sound" or they "squeak" or they "warble" vs "Hey this one actually plays"!

So my question ----
Is all of this poetry and bluster about reeds just much ado about nothing?
Do these different reeds actually have finite different intrinsic "qualities of sound"? -
Or--
More like The Wind in the Willows:
Is all of this talk and focus more akin to a sound based fantasy arising from what each unique player feels while interacting with each unique reed/story?
It is terribly challenging for a blind old mole to understand.

View attachment 29601

Hi Allophone,
Use the 4C mp and a 2 - 2,5 reed.
You have to start somewhere!
Keep is simple and cool untill you finish your first practis saxophone book!

Have fun.

 

[wooster]

I concur with Allophone and others that there seems to be a great deal of fuss made about this subject. I am a beginner. I "began" about 4 years ago then had to quit for a particular reason and now I'm back at it again. As far as reed selection goes, I'm currently more interested in comfort than sound. I had a batch of 1.5 Ricos lying around and have used these to get into some sort of shape again but find them to be pretty soft for me and I've just ordered a pack of Vandoren ZZ no 2 having found an odd Ricoh size 2 and finding it to be a bit better.

I do notice a lot of varying advice about strength for beginners with many teachers recommending 1.5 and others 2.5. This suggests to me that what matters here is as much personal physiology and comfort as hours blowing. I haven't experimented that much but I'll see how I do with these 2s and maybe try something a little harder if it suits me.

I was tempted to go with a Legere for consistency but price put me off until I settle on a strength. Oddly, my AI tells me Legeres are softer than cane so if a 2 in cane works then to go for a 2.5 Legere. This directly contradicts just about every other piece of advice I've heard. So much for AI !

 

[Allophone]

As far as reed selection goes, I'm currently more interested in comfort than sound.

Thank you for reading and replying to my post -
It is nice to hear -
You seem to see the issue -
As beginners - it seems that yes it may be a bit 'uncomfortable' with this reed or with that reed ----
But you must build up your embouchure.
So discomfort is good.
But.........
Then we see all of these advertisements on the Internet to "Get this reed it will sound voluminous" - and then we watch them play that reed in a demo and - wow it sounds Great!!!! And then I buy that reed and I sound like duck farts.
It seems to me it is not the reed --- duh.
It is me.
So to say: "I do not care about sound" ---
But the sound is me.
This is my dilemma -
And to be fair - it has been honestly answered on this forum.
Are we as beginners looking for merely how it feels as we play = comfort:::
Or are we as beginners looking for specific tonality characteristics?
And I think - I have been told - pretty clearly:
Get a reed/mouthpiece you can play for a year and go practice.
It is kind of like the Shaolin Monk telling the novice who wants to learn the secret White Eyebrow Style to go and rake the rock garden.
I know --
And it is frustrating -
But you are spot on --
As we begin this journey there are all of these competing and divergent instructions - makes me nuts -
But time for me to go rake.
;-)

 

[GCinCT]

Oddly, my AI tells me Legeres are softer than cane so if a 2 in cane works then to go for a 2.5 Legere. This directly contradicts just about every other piece of advice I've heard. So much for AI !

AI is frequently wrong about many things. Legeres are harder than most cane reeds.

 

[wooster]

Having gone on about comfort in my reply I suppose I didn't quite mean it as it might have sounded. I do accept some "discomfort" as necessary and "good" as I develop my embouchure but I don't want to try and do the impossible either.

I was trying to say that the reed sound isn't as important as getting the right strength for my learning stage. I guess I'm guided by my teacher as I have a habit of driving myself on a bit relentlessly with the danger of doing myself a bit of mischief.

 

[ghostler]

And while the demonstrators may wax poetically after each session saying things like: "Well you can clearly hear how this reed blows freely" - or "this reed demonstrates remarkable increase in color." or "This reed clearly fulfills its promise for clarity." Honestly they all sounded spot on the same to me.

IMHO, basically you just have to find what reeds are best suited for you. Everyone's embouchure is different.

Opinions vary considerably, what is best for one is not necessarily best for another. I believe there is a certain amount of sincerity in many videos. But, sometimes those who make these videos are trying to obtain the most "likes" to enhance their score or receive monetary incentives from ads, so one doesn't necessarily take what they say to be absolutes.

don’t worry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I've never imbibed enough to witness that. (I know you meant - paying too much attention to the details. Just joshing with you.) 😉

 

[Pete Effamy]

Then we see all of these advertisements on the Internet to "Get this reed it will sound voluminous" - and then we watch them play that reed in a demo and - wow it sounds Great!!!! And then I buy that reed and I sound like duck farts.

Yes advertising. If I jump in an F1 car I can belt around Silverstone like Nigel Mansell.

… or maybe just spin off every time I get to a corner.