The 11chord what do you think?

[travtorn_naglemarv]

Hi everybody

I would like to hear some opinions on the 11chord
I was told that when voicing an 11chord (not minor11), you should avoid the 3rd completely then you have a 9sus -perhaps with 11 as top note.

So I played this chord and listened carefully several times, and I did find it odd, so I accepted this rule.
what do you think?

 

[philthd]

if you leave out the third entirely then you are turning the 11th into a suspended 4th.

and i find a lot of chart writers are pretty lazy and would much rather write C11 than C9sus4 - though it could also be that theyve done it because they feel that the E and the F are both important to voice in the context

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are different ways of thinking about this. Any extension (9, 11, 13) is actually dreived from suspensions (historically speaking). The fact that when used in jazz (and later forms of classical) they can include the note from which they are suspended (2nd plus root, 4th plus 3rd, 6th plus 5th) due to the level of tolerance for dissonance, means that labelling them as extensions (9,11,13) makes more sense.

The reason this doesn't usally happen with the 11th is that it has that one extra level of dissonace due to the semitone or (worse to some ears) the b9 clash.

I was taught by a very mainstream established big band and light orchestral arranger, and was told to omit the 3rd from 11th chords. However I have also seen some arranging texts which advise that you can include the 3rd provided it is only a semitone away from the 11th It works as it is a nice "crunch" as opposed to a b9 which is just nasty.

I now tend to agree with that, although it doesn't work so well with the 1th voiced at the top of the chord, but when on an inside voice it is quite a nice effect.

I always think of a sus 4 as not having any extensions, so I would not call anything 9 sus4, I would use 1th - but I admit there is some confusion depending on whether you allow 3rds with 11ths or not.

 

[Linky Lee]

Thanks Pete, Your reply cleared up my confusion I was having about this topic.
I'd generally stayed away from 11th chords before as I couldn't get them to 'fit in' with the rest of the chords, maybe omitting the 3rd will make all the difference.

 

[charlie_parker]

Without the third it's an inversion of a minor 11th (depending on the context).
The nomenclture "11th" is a function of guitar domination in chord charts for ease of use...
Lot's of stuff cant even be named.
b10th anyone?