Reeds Tenor reed closing up during gig

[cappers]

Out of interest I tried the 'dodgy' reed today. Was fine for about ten minutes of gentle play then started to go flabby. It is now in the fire kindling basket.

Maybe taking in more mouthpiece to get your chops further down the facing curve where the same control pressure doesn't doesn't close off the reed.

Thanks. Tried that on the gig when it played up, sounded like a flatulent goose.
Anyway, my teacher and @Pete Thomas told me, in general to take less in my mouth

All part of the learning curve.

 

[Pete Thomas]

told me, in general to take less in my mouth

I hope I suggested you try it as opposed to telling you that you have to. Your teacher is the one qualified to tell you that you need to, I’m just a bloke on the internet that hasn’t given you lessons so can’t actually diagnose something as definite as that without being there in person like the teacher.

Having said that I do think it’s quite common for problems to be solved by taking in less mouthpiece

 

[cappers]

@Pete Thomas

I’m just a bloke on the internet that hasn’t given you lessons

I don't agree that a highly regarded saxophonist who played in Fats Domino's band, ex university sax lecturer, composer and world-known session, advert and film music player is "just a bloke on the internet..." Your advice is much appreciated.

OK you 'suggested' not 'told'. You have never told me what to do and always deferred to my teacher and I respect that

In the early days my teacher noticed I was taking in too much and encouraged me to try less. You merely confirmed that. Trial and error worked and now I've found the sweet spot. Also how changing its depth or angle can alter the tone, for better or worse.

 

[cappers]

Forgot to include in Pete's accolades above, " ..and founder of a top notch sax forum (CS) and sax tuition website (TTTS).'

 

[Pete Thomas]

sax tuition website (TTTS).'

Thanks!

Although there is one too many Ts. But I’m not a stickler for accuracy, I have indeed myself referred to it as TTFS.

 

[MikeMorrell]

At a gig last Thursday I had difficulties with the reed closing up during our last number. I would have been playing for about 90 minutes. It was intermittent at first when I blew harder, thereafter all notes started to fail. It either sounded flat and flabby or didn't sound at all. When I removed the reed it was damp and felt quite soft especially the tip and wings.

It was a broken-in BSS Black Box 2.5 which worked fine at home, that's why I used it on the gig. Mpc was an original Selemer Soloist Style E. I don't think I was biting or pinching.

Any ideas? Thank you.

All good responses so far! Briefly summarising, it could be due to a 'tired reed' but if you're rotating reeds, this seems to me to be unlikely to be the cause of your reed 'closing up' when 'blowing harder'. FWIW, my reed 'closing up' when blowing hard has been my one and only reason to try out different reed strengths and mpc's.

Why? Because my 'air support/strength', embouchure, etc. gradually increased with time. So I reached points in which my reed/mpc combination would just 'close up' whenever I tried to play harder (ff). I just felt that I couldn't get enough 'air' into my sax to be able to play ff without my reed closing up.

IMHO, any mpc/reed combination should allow you to play a wide dynamic range, from pp to ff. The cheapest (but perhaps not the best) way is to try out slightly stiffer reeds. But maybe, you should also consider a different mpc.

FWIW, I've gradually gone from a 4* mpc (as a beginner) to a 5*, 6*, 7* and 8*mpc. In the same period I've tried out various brands and strengths of reed (from 2.5 to 3,5) with different mpc's.

I'm now happily settled on a Reed Brand/Strength that work equally well with my 2 mpc's.

 

[cappers]

........FWIW, my reed 'closing up' when blowing hard has been my one and only reason to try out different reed strengths and mpc's.

Why? Because my 'air support/strength', embouchure, etc. gradually increased with time. So I reached points in which my reed/mpc combination would just 'close up' whenever I tried to play harder (ff). I just felt that I couldn't get enough 'air' into my sax to be able to play ff without my reed closing up....

Thanks @MikeMorrell

I tried the same reed today and after ten minutes it went flabby, so it went into the firelighter basket. A tired reed and hard blowing! I guess my breath support etc has improved.

In hindsight, I have had reeds close up before during rehearsals or gigs (never as bad as this) and thought it was me tensing.

I've been using #2.5 for several months so maybe #3 might be more appropriate. I'm not into the 'I can blow a plank' game and 3 for a novice sounds hard but playing with the band is much different to tootling at home.

 

[Colin the Bear]

A clipper might be of use.

Sometimes it works to select a reed that is the right strength after it goes flabby.

When starting out we think it's all about saxophone and fingers and then mouthpiece and embouchure but it's actually all about the reed. Selecting, adjusting, preparing, storing, sometimes scraping and sometimes clipping and often rejecting.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Selecting, adjusting, preparing, storing, sometimes scraping and sometimes clipping and often rejecting

Or just taking them out of the box and playing them. 😀

 

[JSL]

It sounds like your reed simply wore out. They all do, eventually.

In hindsight, I have had reeds close up before during rehearsals or gigs (never as bad as this) and thought it was me tensing.

I've been using #2.5 for several months so maybe #3 might be more appropriate. I'm not into the 'I can blow a plank' game and 3 for a novice sounds hard but playing with the band is much different to tootling at home.

I'm a bit confused about what you mean by the reed 'closing up'. Do you mean it sticks to the mpc and stops playing altogether? I've never had that happen. However, every single reed I've ever played for a length of time, no matter how great it was, eventually got too soft and worn out. I've had it happen on a gig, not that the reed wouldn't play at all (or 'closed up'), but it was just losing strength. So, during the break, I'd pull out another reed from my reed guard that I knew was a good one and carry on.

If the 2.5 reeds are working well for you, up until they wear out, you should be fine with them. Going up to a 3 won't solve the issue of the reed wearing out. It may last slightly longer, but not significantly so.

 

[cappers]

I'm a bit confused about what you mean by the reed 'closing up'. Do you mean it sticks to the mpc and stops playing altogether?

Yes, when blowing hard it stopped. When I backed off it sounded flabby like a really soft reed.

I tested the old reed today and it sounded dead. It split when I dried it.
Popped on a new 2.5 and it was lovely, although I didn't play as loud or for as long as the other night.
I have tried a 3, sounded good but was a bit harder to blow. 2.5 seems to be ideal at the moment.

 

[JSL]

Yes, when blowing hard it stopped. When I backed off it sounded flabby like a really soft reed.

Well then for sure that reed was well beyond the point where you'd want to use it on a gig. I generally relegate a reed that I sense is getting too soft to gig on to a temporary 'practice reed'. When I have a great reed that wears out too much for the gig, I still find it to play well enough for practice, up to a point. Beyond that, it goes in the trash.

If the reed is closing off completely, as you describe it, I can only guess that maybe the tip opening on your mpc is rather small. Not that you should necessarily go to a more open tip at this point; the reed was worn out regardless of the tip opening. I play open tips on tenor (7* or 8 on a Link style mpc, 9 or 9* on a med high baffle mpc), so that may be why I've never experienced a reed closing up. However, I won't play a reed that would be that worn out, so that may explain it. No need to go to a more open tip, just discard the reed once it gets so soft.

 

[thomsax]

When a reed is "closing" while you are playing try ...

.... to place the tip of the reed ½-1 mm behind if the tip rail of the mouthpiece.
.... a harder and thicker reed. A 2½ Vandoren V16 .....?
.... remove a small piece of the tip, on the closing reed, with a reed cutter/trimmer.

Maybe it's time to move on from the beginner level? Don't listen too much to your teacher, band instructor/leader ..... listen to your heart. When you are playing at home you have no problem? Maybe you are nervous when you play with the band?

 

[Pete Effamy]

The fact is, you’re closing a reed onto the mouthpiece because of embouchure pressure. If you take the sax out of your mouth and look at the reed it’ll look like any other reed on a mouthpiece - ie not closed against the facing.

So, yes it probably has gone off a cliff and gotten much softer, so your jaw pressure needs to adapt and keep open.

Only until you throw the reed away though and get another. But, that’s why it’s closing - you’re doing it.

 

[MikeMorrell]

+1 for @Colin the Bear's tip about using a reed clipper (or sandpaper) to adjust reeds. And +1 for @thomsax's tips. Though TBH (IMHO) if a reed is simply 'worn out' adjusting' the reed - or its position - may be of limited use. Perhaps in extending its life as a 'practice/rehearsal reed'.

There was a period in my 'beginner years' in which I discovered the 'dark arts' of reed adjustment: breaking them in gradually, noting (on the reed in pencil) whether it played fine 'out of the box' or whether it was slightly 'too stiff' (and needed a wee bit of sanding) or 'too soft' (and needed a miniscule amount of clipping). It took me some time to learn to 'adjust' reeds: 'over-adjustment' leads to potentially playable reeds that went straight into the waste bin.

Expanding on @thomsax's tip, my initial 'reed adjustment' process changed when I first read Emeritus Professor Steven Mauk's article on 'reed placement and adjustment'. I've followed the principles of this article ever since. Mainly by placing the tip of 'thinner/older reeds' slightly further away from the mpc tip. And placing the tip of 'new' or 'thicker' reeds much closer to the tip of the mpc. I still do this today at every rehearsal when 'setting up'. Just to find the 'sweet spot' of positioning any reed on any mpc that enables me to play the widest range of notes (from low B♭ to high F) with the greatest 'ease' and with the 'best' tone. IMHO (as an amateur), selecting and positioning a reed (and ligature) on the mpc is often a compromise between hitting both the 'low notes' and 'high notes' well. And also between being able to play at pp and ff.

I've posted this link to Steven Mauk's article many times on the café. Just because I personally found it so insightful and helpful.

No, it doesn't solve the problem of 'worn out' (or damaged) reeds. But it has enabled me to make minor adjustments during 'set up' and more importantly 'on the fly' during rehearsals and performances without having to stop playing and swap reeds.

IMHO experience, reeds don't (often) 'suddenly die'. Rather, they gradually 'degrade' (become softer, less resonant, etc) over time. As you say, "in hindsight, I have had reeds close up before during rehearsals or gigs (never as bad as this) and thought it was me tensing". So please, just learn from this experience (which we all go through!). If a reed doesn't feel right for you, it probably isn't.
As you gain more more playing experience, I'm sure that you'll become more able to adjust to playing any reed. 'out-of-the-box'. As @Nick Wyver said.

 

[cappers]

I've posted this link to Steven Mauk's article many times on the café. Just because I personally found it so insightful and helpful.

Emeritus Professor Steven Mauk's article on 'reed placement and adjustment'.

@MikeMorrell I'd be interested in reading that but the link doesn't work (for me)
I'm sure I've tried before without luck when you've posted it.

 

[JSL]

+1 for @Colin the Bear's tip about using a reed clipper (or sandpaper) to adjust reeds. And +1 for @thomsax's tips. Though TBH (IMHO) if a reed is simply 'worn out' adjusting' the reed - or its position - may be of limited use. Perhaps in extending its life as a 'practice/rehearsal reed'.

Ok, here's one more tip (that I've mentioned before, either here or on SOTW) for what to do with a reed that is 'closing up' or simply getting too soft. If it happens on a gig, there's a quick and temporary fix, that will get you through the set or even the rest of the gig:

Take a business card or credit card and with the reed still on the mpc, insert it between the reed and the mpc. Then gently bend the reed outward a couple of times, away from the mpc tip & facing. That will revitalize the reed for a short time. I once saw Gene Ammons doing this; at the time I had no idea why, but later on learned what it was. It does work pretty well, but only for a relatively short time.

 

[Zasterz]

what to do with a reed that is 'closing up' or simply getting too soft. If it happens on a gig, there's a quick and temporary fix

Wait a minute- isn’t the obvious thing to do at the gig to just grab another reed, either from your “rotation” case or new from a box? Are people really showing up to gigs without any extra reeds on them? 😧

 

[JSL]

Wait a minute- isn’t the obvious thing to do at the gig to just grab another reed, either from your “rotation” case or new from a box? Are people really showing up to gigs without any extra reeds on them? 😧

+1. I already covered that in an earlier post:

However, every single reed I've ever played for a length of time, no matter how great it was, eventually got too soft and worn out. I've had it happen on a gig, not that the reed wouldn't play at all (or 'closed up'), but it was just losing strength. So, during the break, I'd pull out another reed from my reed guard that I knew was a good one and carry on.

Note that I said, "during a break". If you want a quick fix, on the spot, it's much faster to use the business card 'trick' of bending the reed out away from the tip. You can do that in the middle of a tune, if necessary. Then, on the break, grab another reed.

 

[cappers]

Wait a minute- isn’t the obvious thing to do at the gig to just grab another reed, either from your “rotation” case or new from a box? Are people really showing up to gigs without any extra reeds on them?

It happened during my solo on the last song of the night so had little choice but to carry on.
I always carry spare reeds and would have stepped back and changed the reed at any other time.