Theory & Impro Susb9 chords notation

[jazzybunny]

Hi every jazz musician, I am new here.

Well. I am now very confused with this issue! Especially for the susb9 chords.

1. Say, in C major scale. Why is there a "b9" in the chord symbol of Esusb9? Why not just use Esus9 instead? Could anyone please explain to me?

My current understanding is that the "b9" in Esusb9 will be the note, "Fb", because the chord notes of Esusb9 is based on E Phrygian mode, and the ninth corresponds to the second note of that mode, which will be "F". Because we use 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 for diatonic notes in the scale and use # and b for alterations. The note, F, is the diatonic note of E Phrygian. So, why not use Esus9 but Esusb9?

Or, maybe, the E Phrygian(1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7) is compared with E major scale(1,2,3,4,5,6,7). I am not very sure. If this is correct, my confusion will be gone.




By the way!!

2. Do susb9 chords(III) function like sus chords(V)? What is the main difference between them?

For example, Esusb9(E F A B D) and Esus(E F# A D). F natural and F#. Is that correct? If so, any more explanation?

I regard that even though the chord(Esusb9) is based on the third mode(E Phryigian), but the chord or mode is actually for the key of A major, not the key of C major.




Well... sorry about to ask so many question for you.

Thanks in advance!! Bunny 🙂

 

[Pete Thomas]

E sus b9 would have E A B D and F

ie root 4th 5th b7th and b9

because the chord notes of Esusb9 is based on E Phrygian mode,

Do susb9 chords(III) function like sus chords(V)? What is the main difference between them?

a sus chord is the same irrespective of whether it's III or V or whatever.

Chord intervals are not based on any particular scale, just based on intervals counted up from the root.

in any chord a 9th = One octave plus one whole tone (14 semitones), so a b9 is always one octave plus one semitone.

I think you are getting chords confused with scales. That's why I think this system of associating a particular scale with a particular chord is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[Simon]

Hi JB,

It all comes back to major scales and how well you know them. Often they're used as the point of reference. The chord 'alterations' are compared to the major scale of the same letter.

You know C Major: CDEFGABC

So,
C7#4: C D E F# G A Bb C
C7b9#9#11b13 (usually C alt): C Db Eb E F# G# Bb C
----

'E7susb9': if you said, ok E is the third note of C Major and if I wrote out a scale starting E up to E:

EFGABCDE (= E Phygian)

and then compared this to E Major

EF#G#ABC#D#E

you'd have: 1, b9, b10, b13, b7 (ie no 3rd)

The chord notes would be as Pete described.

In terms of harmony, I have heard of Esusb9. This is the second mode of the D Melodic Minor scale, like a Phygian but with a C#:

EFGABC#DE ...

Now that's a cool sound.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[pete_canter]

Hi Jazzy

As well as the notation, you asked about the function of susb9 chords - yes they are phrygian ie III chord in major, but also can be a II chord in melodic minor and yes they can also function as a dominant so Esusb9 resolves rather nicely to A major. In the latter case the Esusb9 can be seen as a rootless G9/E. See Mark Levine's chapter on sus & phrygian chords in his great book on jazz piano for a good explanation. Interestingly Esusb9 is also an inversion of F maj7 #11. So an interesting chord and I love it.

Pete