Tone or Sound Subtone vibration felt through tenor sax?

[cappers]

In answer to @Pete Thomas thread revival:

Jul 13, 2025
cappers said:

"Read up about the low relaxed jaw with a pulled back chin, pouty embouchure with a slightly pushed out lower lip, open throat blowing a steady stream of slowish warm air with good abdominal support down into the mouthpiece! "

I think it’s worth coming back to this after 6 months or so, how is it all going now with subtone?

I also realised I didn’t respond to the above quote.

I don’t really recognise some of those bits of advice, such as:

• Pulled back chin
• Pouty embouchure
• Slowish warm air
• Down into the mouthpiece

I would be intrigued to know more where those came from, what they actually mean and how they have helped.

Oh dear, in trouble again! I didn't say all I've read about subtones was on TTS.
TTS Subtone on the Saxophone does suggest:

• Relax your jaw

The OP does says "relaxed jaw with a pulled back chin" and my chin does recede and go down with a relaxed jaw. I think it implies trying to get a nice relaxed open throat and jaw whilst maintaining adequate pressure on the reed.

I think other sources were Jamie 'Pro Saxophonist' Anderson and Scott 'What's Up Everybody' Paddock on YouTube.

I believe the 'pouty embouchure' means a more lip out embouchure than the classical lip-over approach to make a soft cushion without tensing the jaw.

"Slowish warm air" I believe is correct for subtones and 'normal' tones (unless high register?). Maybe a bit slower to slow the reed vibration frequency.

"Down into the mpc" This puzzled me but its more of a mental image, blow through the horn but as you're blowing onto the tip of the reed. I tried and it seem to make a difference?

I didn't mention "Less mpc in mouth" but that agrees with TTS. As a beginner I went from too little to too much but have found the sweet spot now which is less than I thought it should be!

I realise that YouTube experts aren't always what they appear but I think Jamie Anderson ("Pro Saxophonist"?) is fairly OK. I don't watch them anymore, it was my early thirst for all knowledge saxophonic. My face to face teacher is my best advisor!

Hope this clarifies things.

 

[Ghr9204]

I realise that YouTube experts aren't always what they appear but I think Jamie Anderson ("Pro Saxophonist"?) is fairly OK. I don't watch them anymore, it was my early thirst for all knowledge saxophonic. My face to face teacher is my best advisor!

A good subtone is IMO an advanced subject. You've made a lot of progress considering that you have only been with the sax for a relatively short time. I'd focus on song play, getting the notes, working on solos when you have them, playing dynamics and expression, and etc. Over time as you gain experience in the other areas, then you'll find you'll be able to do subtone.

Reason why I say this, is even for me as long as I've been playing, it wasn't until fairly recent that I started working on subtone. The Jupiter Vito 7133T tenor I have, after new pads and kinks worked on leaks by Tarpley Music, Lubbock sax tech, this horn is very easy to get a very nice subtone on, in fact a touch easier than my newer Venus, which although an excellent ballad solo instrument, it really sings, the Jupe has an edge over it in subtone, thus now my favorite.

If in your play you have a really nice tone although not subtoned, sings out with good intonation, expression, etc., the audience will still love it. I'm not saying to forget subtone, just priorities, it will come with time.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Oh dear, in trouble again! I didn't say all I've read about subtones was on TTS.
TTS Subtone on the Saxophone does suggest:

• Relax your jaw

You’re not in trouble again , I realised you weren’t saying you’d read it on TTS.

I just wanted to know what was meant by those phrases (apart from relax your jaw which I understand)

I’ve heard people mention warm air but have never really known what it means in this context, I can’t control the temperature of the air. The other thing is slow air.

As above, obviously I understand relaxed jaw, but I do not understand the receding jaw. I can move mine forward from its natural position but not pull it back without discomfort or even closing off my throat.

 

[skeller047]

I’ve always said that playing subtone involves placing air into the mouthpiece instead of through the horn. I know that doesn’t mean anything, but it’s what it feels like to me. Similar to how I place air when blowing over a soda bottle.

About the vibrations, that’s definitely a thing. A couple of weeks ago, I played with a piano player who I’ve known for a while, but we’ve always played at a jam session that has a big open room. This gig was on a small stage and I was standing right next to him. He said he felt the vibration from my horn, which he didn’t at the jams where we usually play together. I certainly feel the horn vibrating when I play with a strong tone, OR when subtoning down low. I believe it’s vibration of the air column in the horn being transmitted through the key cups (via the pads I assume), as I feel it in my fingers. It isn’t loose keywork, I know what that is like from other horns, but this one doesn’t have that issue.

 

[Pete Thomas]

placing air into the mouthpiece instead of through the horn. I know that doesn’t mean anything, but it’s what it feels like to me

Yes there are plenty of ways to visualize things that aren’t really happening, but nonetheless can help you. Different things work for different people. When teaching I found that the first job of a teacher is a sort of psychological evaluation for various reasons:

• Some students react well to being blunt and strict, others do not
• Some do find visualizations and analogies useful, others do not.

Somewhere we did a survey re: my TTS visualizations page and the results were very varied if I recall

Own and understand your sound: How to visualize your sound

Looking the way people describe their saxophone tone, we may all mean different things by bright & dark. Describe your sound as a color?

tamingthesaxophone.com

 

[dreadnet]

Got the same vibe through the body from a Yamaha YAS25 playing low Bb.

 

[mizmar]

I believe it’s vibration of the air column in the horn being transmitted through the key cups

Just to be a bit boringly reductionist
If you consider the spectral graphs (called "audio waveforms") on the TTS subtone page.

Subtone on the Saxophone

How to get a full on big fat soft and sexy smoky subtone sound like the great players. It's easier than you think.

tamingthesaxophone.com

These can be read as the amount of energy at each frequency. Subtone puts more energy in the low frequency peeks. The more the energy is concentrated in the fundamental and first overtones, the clearer the tone. But also the more the, somewhat stiffer, brass tube can be made to vibrate at that frequency.

 

[cappers]

You’re not in trouble again , I realised you weren’t saying you’d read it on TTS.

I just wanted to know what was meant by those phrases (apart from relax your jaw which I understand)

I’ve heard people mention warm air but have never really known what it means in this context, I can’t control the temperature of the air. The other thing is slow air.

As above, obviously I understand relaxed jaw, but I do not understand the receding jaw. I can move mine forward from its natural position but not pull it back without discomfort or even closing off my throat.

I have misquoted or quoted out of context before so a bit wary!

Re 'warm' air. Many have mentioned this and my take on it is to breathe with an open throat as possible, as if yawning or steaming up a mirror or glass. Can't control the temperature per se but a more open oral cavity seems to blow warmer air.

'Slow' air, I take as not forcing it just, using the abdominals and intercostals to control the release of air in a gentle manner. I think too fast will raise the pitch? Tongue position is important here too.

Finally 'receding jaw'. Scott describes this as the shape one gets sound 'fvoo'. When I do this touching my chin the jaw does drop and go back, straight unbunched chin?

A good subtone is IMO an advanced subject. You've made a lot of progress considering that you have only been with the sax for a relatively short time. I'd focus on song play, getting the notes, working on solos when you have them, playing dynamics and expression, and etc.

I am surprised that I can subtone at all at my stage of development, just experimenting 😉 My concentration currently is focused on my tone and general playing skills but good to know these things.

Thanks all.

 

[Pete Thomas]

'Slow' air, I take as not forcing it just, using the abdominals and intercostals to control the release of air in a gentle manner. I think too fast will raise the pitch?

That may be overthinking it.

Although it's important to use what people call diaphragm breathing, there are times when gentle air is not enough and you just change your air pressure to suit the music. Subtone needn't just be for gentle ballad playing, I have often used to for loud rock and/or free jazz. Subtone mixed with growl low down can be a wonderful sound whether you whisper it or you give it some welly. Also I never think about the speed of the air.

I don't think fast air raises the pitch, I may be wrong.

Tongue position is important here too.

Something I never think about. But I don't believe it's important or has anything to do with the tone or sound when you aren't actually using it for articulation (obviously). So again worrying about tongue position may be overthinking it.

Basically I'm trying to say it can be a lot simpler and I have always encouraged students to try stuff out and not get bogged down in technicalities, and that all a good teacher needs to do is teach someone how to teach themselves and or trust their own instincts and develop almost subconsciously (if they don't already know) and to point out anything that could become a bad habit.

 

[cappers]

That may be overthinking it.
...........
Basically I'm trying to say it can be a lot simpler and I have always encouraged students to try stuff out and not get bogged down in technicalities, and that all a good teacher needs to do is teach someone how to teach themselves and or trust their own instincts and develop almost subconsciously (if they don't already know) and to point out anything that could become a bad habit.

Thank you @Pete Thomas

When I play I don't actively think about oral cavity shape, tongue position and air speed etc. With time and with practice it is becoming subconscious.

I think these are pointers, generalisations on how one might achieve it, but I do believe it is an individual thing. I tried for quite a while using different jaw positions, throat shapes, tongue positions to get the sound I was aiming for, and now it has become almost automatic. Not necessarily good but I can do it.

Subtone needn't just be for gentle ballad playing, I have often used to for loud rock and/or free jazz. Subtone mixed with growl low down can be a wonderful sound whether you whisper it or you give it some welly.

Being an inquisitive and stubborn person I have experimented with growling and subtoning and it is a great combination. I hear it as a blousy, raunchy, guttural sound and love it. e.g your Another Night in the Naked City (Part 2)

 

[JSL]

Basically I'm trying to say it can be a lot simpler and I have always encouraged students to try stuff out and not get bogged down in technicalities, and that all a good teacher needs to do is teach someone how to teach themselves and or trust their own instincts and develop almost subconsciously (if they don't already know) and to point out anything that could become a bad habit.

+1. This is the bottom line, imo, for most things involving tone quality and 'sound effects'. Most of what's happening in your mouth and with your tongue, etc. becomes largely subconscious. The way to get there is by using your ear and experimenting with whatever it takes to get the sound you are seeking. I can do a lot of things (altissimo, subtone, etc.) requiring 'voicing' or whatever you want to call it without being able to say what exactly I'm doing physically to get the effect. One exception might be 'flutter tongue'; I can say in that case I simply roll my tongue. But even that might not be a very good description. As to subtone, just experiment with the airstream and maybe a loose jaw, while listening to get the sound you're aiming for.

 

[Dr G]

Saxophone tone is the precursor of biofeedback. Hear something - change something. Make other changes - hear something different. Iterate. It doesn’t matter what you think you are changing - it ultimately works on a deeper level.

Ommmmm…

 

[JSL]

Saxophone tone is the precursor of biofeedback. Hear something - change something. Make other changes - hear something different. Iterate. It doesn’t matter what you think you are changing - it ultimately works on a deeper level.

Ommmmm…

George, you stated exactly what I was trying to say, but far, far more succinctly. Thank you!

 

[Stephen Howard]

Saxophone tone is the precursor of biofeedback. Hear something - change something. Make other changes - hear something different. Iterate. It doesn’t matter what you think you are changing - it ultimately works on a deeper level.

Much you must learn, yes, young Jedi.
Or, if you prefer - "Close, but no cigar".

Allow me...

"Saxophone tone is the precursor of marketing. Hear something - buy something. Make other changes - hear something different. Buy more things."

 

[JSL]

Allow me...

"Saxophone tone is the precursor of marketing. Hear something - buy something. Make other changes - hear something different. Buy more things."

LOL. Brilliant Stephen! The truth comes out.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Being skint makes you work harder.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Being skint makes you work harder.

That's probably why most of the working pros I see are using the same old horn and setup they've had for donkey years.
It's mostly about the work you put in.

 

[Dr G]

Being skint makes you work harder.

What makes one work smarter?

 

[Targa]

What makes one work smarter?

A good quality three piece suit and shiny shoes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

What makes one work smarter?

Not trying to make a living playing saxophone.