Tone or Sound Subtone vibration felt through tenor sax?

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LostCircuits said:
I am thinking about pushing the air through the horn but when it comes to achieving a specific tone or timbre I am thinking about directing the air flow inside the MPC.
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Sure. That makes sense. I don't think it contradicts the visualization of blowing through the horn, though. As to the subtleties of achieving a specific tone or timbre, 'voicing' comes into it and whatever physical manifestations are necessary are mostly subconscious and based on using your ear. All of which is pretty abstract when trying to describe it.

p.s. Yeah, playing a wind or brass instrument probably indicates some sort of 'oral fixation'.
 
JSL said:
Sure. That makes sense. I don't think it contradicts the visualization of blowing through the horn, though. As to the subtleties of achieving a specific tone or timbre, 'voicing' comes into it and whatever physical manifestations are necessary are mostly subconscious and based on using your ear. All of which is pretty abstract when trying to describe it.

p.s. Yeah, playing a wind or brass instrument probably indicates some sort of 'oral fixation'.
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Good point @JSL
On reflection I would say for sub toning I visualise blowing the air through the horn from my abdomen as per usual but directing it downwards into the mpc, if that makes more sense.

But I can't say exactly what I'm doing as most of it, as you said, is due to subtle changes at a subconscious level.

Off topic - I really enjoy this forum. It has been a great help and a very pleasant place to chat about sax related things. Most importantly members are kind, polite and respectful. As a relative beginner I have asked a few probably dumb questions and got confused over my Maj7 and C7ths (that turned into a marathon thread!) but have been met with tolerance, advice and humour. Thank you @Pete Thomas @Jeanette and all of you
 
cappers said:
So is the vibration I felt a real phenomenon, or a sign of something loose/out of adjustment or just my enthusiastic imagination?
Thank you.
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It's a YTS-25, one of the most responsive horns out there. The feedback you get from these horns is impressive. If you haven't experienced a 'subtone rumble' before, it's bound to make you go 'Woah!'

That said, low subtones can really shake things around - and if there's anything loose on the horn it can set up something of a buzz. The difference is that a subtone rumble is something that you feel...a subtone buzz is something that you hear, and it's typically of a much higher pitch than the note.
Unlubricated rollers are a prime source of it, closely followed by loose guard screws , loose bumper felt adjusters, wear/lack of lubrication in the keywork, loose rivets in the pad reflectors, loose regulation adjusters, missing regulation corks/tubes, loose lyre screws and loose ligature screws. Once in a while you might also find a spring is the cause...but it's pretty rare.
Another source can be weak springs on sprung closed keys; low Eb and C# are the usual culprits - but the side C/Bb can be problematical too. However, this usually results in more of a high-speed warble than a buzz.

Easiest way to experience this is to loosen the lyre and/or ligature screws and play the horn. If you're feeling more adventurous, back off one or two guard screws.

There's also a 'Gotcha!' that can catch you out, which is something external rattling in sympathy. I once spent ages trying to track down a buzz on a horn...turned out to be a couple of screws in a pot on the bench vibrating when I played the low notes.

Adjustable stays are another gotcha. This is much more common on brasswinds whereby a small piece of loose solder gets trapped inside a tube and rattles around with the vibrations. It's rare on saxes because there aren't many with this type of stay these days, but you can sometimes get loose bits of solder trapped under bottom bow plates and crook braces.
 
Stephen Howard said:
It's a YTS-25, one of the most responsive horns out there. The feedback you get from these horns is impressive. If you haven't experienced a 'subtone rumble' before, it's bound to make you go 'Woah!'

That said, low subtones can really shake things around - and if there's anything loose on the horn it can set up something of a buzz. The difference is that a subtone rumble is something that you feel...a subtone buzz is something that you hear, and it's typically of a much higher pitch than the note.
Unlubricated rollers are a prime source of it, closely followed by loose guard screws , loose bumper felt adjusters, wear/lack of lubrication in the keywork, loose rivets in the pad reflectors, loose regulation adjusters, missing regulation corks/tubes, loose lyre screws and loose ligature screws. Once in a while you might also find a spring is the cause...but it's pretty rare.
Another source can be weak springs on sprung closed keys; low Eb and C# are the usual culprits - but the side C/Bb can be problematical too. However, this usually results in more of a high-speed warble than a buzz.

Easiest way to experience this is to loosen the lyre and/or ligature screws and play the horn. If you're feeling more adventurous, back off one or two guard screws.

There's also a 'Gotcha!' that can catch you out, which is something external rattling in sympathy. I once spent ages trying to track down a buzz on a horn...turned out to be a couple of screws in a pot on the bench vibrating when I played the low notes.

Adjustable stays are another gotcha. This is much more common on brasswinds whereby a small piece of loose solder gets trapped inside a tube and rattles around with the vibrations. It's rare on saxes because there aren't many with this type of stay these days, but you can sometimes get loose bits of solder trapped under bottom bow plates and crook braces.
Read more…
The idea of adjustable stays vibrating with the sound of the saxophone looked quite interesting, then I read your explanation of what you meant.
 
Keep doing what you're doing Cappers, it's perfectly normal and, that is the 'subtones'; additional frequencies. Sometimes you can get what is called a brittle sound in those low subs ... a sort of warble. It's just a case of embouchure adjustment. Probably no need to pull back your chin actually; just drop the jaw and get plenty of air through the horn ... relax. Have you been working on not tonguing, just slowly building up air until you get a feint tone then slowly and gently raising the volume? Sub-toning is best with minimal tonguing, using 'The The' tonguing at the most. It's also best learnt with a softer reed than you normally use, or a well used reed. I'd like to hear a soundbite of what your subtone sounds like through that YTS-25!
 
Stephen Howard said:
It's a YTS-25, one of the most responsive horns out there. The feedback you get from these horns is impressive. If you haven't experienced a 'subtone rumble' before, it's bound to make you go 'Woah!'

.......................... a subtone rumble is something that you feel...a subtone buzz is something that you hear, and it's typically of a much higher pitch than the note.
Read more…

Thank you @Stephen Howard for your detailed reply.

I definitely felt it rather than heard it so it must be a 'subtone rumble' :mrcool My tutor checked and played the horn yesterday and declared it AOK and 'lovely', the vibration a characteristic of the horn.

YTS-25 fan club - When I started at the beginning of the year I picked up a YAS-25 in lovely condition, it just needed some pads and a service. I learnt the basics on that and it plays beautifully even in my hands/mouth.

I really wanted a tenor and a couple of months later the same seller offered me the YTS-25.
It's been well used, but works perfectly and I adore it. The first time I picked it up and blew it I was 'Yeah this is the one!' The ergonomics, the responsiveness, the feel, the look, the ease of blowing, and the sound. Yes, even in my chops and a 5C mpc! I've heard some people say Yamahas are 'bright' or 'modern' sounding, but this one isn't. It was made in Japan and has an earlyish s/n 007*** !

At my age these will be my horns for good and I have no desire for anything 'better'.
 
Stephen Howard said:
It's a YTS-25, one of the most responsive horns out there. The feedback you get from these horns is impressive. If you haven't experienced a 'subtone rumble' before, it's bound to make you go 'Woah!'

There's also a 'Gotcha!' that can catch you out, which is something external rattling in sympathy.
Read more…
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about external things vibrating ... I have a heating radiator that does. Confused me for some 20 minutes!
 
Honkin Ron Howe said:
........ Have you been working on not tonguing, just slowly building up air until you get a feint tone then slowly and gently raising the volume? Sub-toning is best with minimal tonguing, using 'The The' tonguing at the most. It's also best learnt with a softer reed than you normally use, or a well used reed. I'd like to hear a soundbite of what your subtone sounds like through that YTS-25!
Read more…
Thanks Ron @Honkin Ron Howe

No tonguing, just a slow and steady build up to the note sounds and the volume is to my liking, then maintain it. If too fast or strong I get the 'normal' note or a honk!
I tried tonguing with a 'fva' which is more gentle than 'tu/vu' but I think it's best legato.

Re the soundbite, I need more practice before I go public!
 
Stephen Howard said:
It's a YTS-25, one of the most responsive horns out there. The feedback you get from these horns is impressive. If you haven't experienced a 'subtone rumble' before, it's bound to make you go 'Woah!'

That said, low subtones can really shake things around - and if there's anything loose on the horn it can set up something of a buzz. The difference is that a subtone rumble is something that you feel...a subtone buzz is something that you hear, and it's typically of a much higher pitch than the note.
Unlubricated rollers are a prime source of it, closely followed by loose guard screws , loose bumper felt adjusters, wear/lack of lubrication in the keywork, loose rivets in the pad reflectors, loose regulation adjusters, missing regulation corks/tubes, loose lyre screws and loose ligature screws. Once in a while you might also find a spring is the cause...but it's pretty rare.
Another source can be weak springs on sprung closed keys; low Eb and C# are the usual culprits - but the side C/Bb can be problematical too. However, this usually results in more of a high-speed warble than a buzz.

Easiest way to experience this is to loosen the lyre and/or ligature screws and play the horn. If you're feeling more adventurous, back off one or two guard screws.

There's also a 'Gotcha!' that can catch you out, which is something external rattling in sympathy. I once spent ages trying to track down a buzz on a horn...turned out to be a couple of screws in a pot on the bench vibrating when I played the low notes.

Adjustable stays are another gotcha. This is much more common on brasswinds whereby a small piece of loose solder gets trapped inside a tube and rattles around with the vibrations. It's rare on saxes because there aren't many with this type of stay these days, but you can sometimes get loose bits of solder trapped under bottom bow plates and crook braces.
Read more…
But why in the world would you want to fix it?
 
cappers said:
Read up about the low relaxed jaw with a pulled back chin, pouty embouchure with a slightly pushed out lower lip, open throat blowing a steady stream of slowish warm air with good abdominal support down into the mouthpiece! (various sources incl. TTS)
Read more…
I think it’s worth coming back to this after 6 months or so, how is it all going now with subtone?

I also realised I didn’t respond to the above quote.

I don’t really recognise some of those bits of advice, such as:

  • Pulled back chin
  • Pouty embouchure
  • Slowish warm air
  • Down into the mouthpiece

I would be intrigued to know more where those came from, what they actually mean and how they have helped.
 

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