Tone or Sound Subtone vibration felt through tenor sax?

[cappers]

I can't find a similar thread so asking here.

I've been practicing subtoning on my YTS-25 with a 5C mpc and #2 Alexander DC reed.
Read up about the low relaxed jaw with a pulled back chin, pouty embouchure with a slightly pushed out lower lip, open throat blowing a steady stream of slowish warm air with good abdominal support down into the mouthpiece! (various sources incl. TTS) The last bit is more visualisation but thinking of pushing the air into the mpc rather than down the horn.

Took several attempts and not always consistent but it worked. I managed to slur down D1/C1/B1 and then Bb1 and the sound was so lush and deep and 'Websterish' Yes, I know slurring down is easier than starting at Bb1 but got to start somewhere.

My question is, when I managed to get subtones on B1 and Bb1 I could feel a subtle vibration in the horn through my fingers and to a certain extent my body. The sound wasn't vibrating or motor-boating, it was a physical thing. There is nothing wrong with the horn, checked over last week when I had the neck tenon adjusted. I also checked the G# action by playing long D1 and C1 pressing the G# key on and off and didn't notice any change in the notes.

So is the vibration I felt a real phenomenon, or a sign of something loose/out of adjustment or just my enthusiastic imagination?
Thank you.

 

[JayeNM]

It is real, you aren't imagining it, probably....it could be something loose, something as simple as a keyguard or a key barrel with a slight bit of play.

Sometimes these can be sleuthed out, othertimes it's just what the horn is gonna do.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It is real, you aren't imagining it, probably....it could be something loose, something as simple as a keyguard or a key barrel with a slight bit of play.

Yes I agree it can happen. I had on a Martin Committee III and it was I think a sidekey. Just needed a slightly stronger spring.

 

[cappers]

Thanks @JayeNM and @Pete Thomas

As I said it's not a vibration in terms of sound, pitch or tone, just a subtle sense which I felt not heard. Rather like feeling the bass from a loud deep speaker but more subtle.

I'm seeing my teacher tomorrow and I'll ask him to check it out as he's also a woodwind tech.
Shame, I thought I might have been in harmony with the horn's cosmic vibrations

 

[skeller047]

If you are using just enough finger pressure to hold down the keys, but no more, you can sometimes feel the vibration of lower notes in the keys. The vibrating air in the horn transmits a bit through the pads. This may or may not be related to how well the pads were installed. It may also be related to how dense the felt in the pads is.

Keys that are just slightly loose on their hinge rods can also vibrate a little.

 

[Woodpad]

To be thorough also check that the G.>G# doesm't move when fingering low B or Bb.

 

[Colin the Bear]

All my saxophones sing, sizzle and jingle in the hands.
With a gorilla grip you won't feel it but with a well regulated horn sealing well and needing only the lightest of touch, it comes alive in your hands.

 

[cappers]

All my saxophones sing, sizzle and jingle in the hands.
With a gorilla grip you won't feel it but with a well regulated horn sealing well and needing only the lightest of touch, it comes alive in your hands.

Hmmm, thanks @Colin the Bear.
I don't think I have beginners' 'gorilla grip' - a habit my teacher advised me against - and generally have a light touch on the keys.
Perhaps there is some detectable resonant vibration on the very low notes? It plays fine and AFAIK has no leaks or regulation issues. I checked it again last night, and couldn't see/feel anything wrong. Springs ok, keys closing correctly, all corks and felts in situ. Played D1 C1 B1 and Bb1 with and without G# and no change in tone/pitch was heard. I'm not biting and it is not a warble, motor boating or fluctuating note, just a very subtle vibration felt though my fingers. It felt and sounded nice I didn't think oh gosh what's going wrong here, I thought this is good!
I'll see what my teacher says later today.

PS just found this by @Colin the Bear from 2015! Playing - Upper G/G# Resonating Different topic/issue but this confirmed my thoughts: "The saxophone does vibrate. It's a lovely feeling when you hit certain notes and the whole thing feels alive in your hands."

And @Veggie Dave in the same thread: "Ah, you're all talking about the shock of discovering just how much a sax vibrates, especially certain notes. Now I understand. "

 

[Targa]

All my saxophones sing, sizzle and jingle in the hands.
With a gorilla grip you won't feel it but with a well regulated horn sealing well and needing only the lightest of touch, it comes alive in your hands.

It was when I first got that 'alive' feeling that I thought I might be getting the hang of it at last.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's this vibration that confuses some into thinking that it has some affect on sound. That and it being a woodwind.

 

[hedgehog]

shame, I thought I might have been in harmony with the horn's cosmic vibrations

Well, anytime you play you are in touch with the horn's cosmic vibrations, if you are, erm, attuned to them.

 

[LostCircuits]

Well, anytime you play you are in touch with the horn's cosmic vibrations, if you are, erm, attuned to them.

That's why I gave you the "you are a star" reaction!

OP, most horns vibrate to some degree some more, others less. My 1924 TT tenor comes to life when I push it, I mean it literally bucks and there isn't really anything loose. It's a great sensation when your horn tells you that it wants to be pushed even more.

Modern horns are a bit more coy ... puritan ...

 

[cappers]

My teacher checked the sax this afternoon and it's AOK, no leaks, missing bits or regulation issues 🙂

He played overtones D -> Bb1 on it and could feel a subtle vibration on the lowest notes and said that some horns do it more than others.

He complimented me on my subtones and ability with the low notes, which was nice!


Happy days.

 

[JSL]

I feel what seems to be a faint and pleasant vibration or 'resonance' in my Mark VI tenor throughout the range of the horn. Maybe it's a bit more noticeable in the mid to low register. I've never known for certain whether or not it's simply in my mind, but I don't get quite the same feel on my Aristocrat tenor, so I think it might be real. In any case, it feels good, and I like it.

The last bit is more visualisation but thinking of pushing the air into the mpc rather than down the horn.

This sounds a bit strange to me. I've always visualized pushing air all the way through the horn, regardless of whether I'm playing subtone or 'normally'. Not sure how important that is, but it's what I do.

 

[LostCircuits]

This sounds a bit strange to me. I've always visualized pushing air all the way through the horn, regardless of whether I'm playing subtone or 'normally'. Not sure how important that is, but it's what I do.

I'm thinking that's almost a matter of "semantics in your head". I am thinking about pushing the air through the horn but when it comes to achieving a specific tone or timbre I am thinking about directing the air flow inside the MPC. It's just a perspective and to each his own, I don't think there is a wrong or right.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I feel the sound in my mouth. Maybe I'm just a fat bloke with an oral fixation. 😉

 

[cappers]

I've never known for certain whether or not it's simply in my mind, but I don't get quite the same feel on my Aristocrat tenor, so I think it might be real. In any case, it feels good, and I like it.

I was the same but as my teacher confirmed it I don't think it's my mind 😳
And yes, it feels good and I like it too!

I've always visualized pushing air all the way through the horn, regardless of whether I'm playing subtone or 'normally'. Not sure how important that is, but it's what I do.

I've been taught to visualise blowing through the horn and this makes the best sound.

For the subtones, I tried various mpc angles, insertion depths, jaw positions, voicing, breath speed and support.

For me the sweet-spot to sound them was with just the tip of the mpc in my mouth, pouty lower lip and retracted jaw, 'yawny' throat and blowing full but softly into the mpc.

I need more practice obviously but blowing 'through the horn' tended to make the note sound less 'wooffy'?

 

[mizmar]

The use of "vibration", "mouth", "fingers", "blowing", "throat"...
.. is really going to screw mess up the SEO for this thread

 

[LostCircuits]

I feel the sound in my mouth. Maybe I'm just a fat bloke with an oral fixation. 😉

You never told us you were the role model for Shakira.

 

[Targa]

I feel the sound in my mouth. Maybe I'm just a fat bloke with an oral fixation. 😉

Obviously many years ago a lady started work in the office and asked if I minded if she smoked, I said it was alright, gave her time to light up and take the first drag before adding 'of course it is only oral gratification'.
She damn near collapsed coughing and laughing at the same time.