Mouthpieces Soprano MPC < Go big or go home?

[Pete Effamy]

IMO, playing a wider tip is just tiring. You need something that will stay focused and intune under harsh circustances.

Yeah.. The biggest problem with this is a tendency to just bite back to a manageable tip opening. It needs technique to be able to utilise the larger tip, it won't just work.

 

[Pete Effamy]

...and in my opinion, it's likely to lead to worse intonation

 

[Dr G]

Yeah.. The biggest problem with this is a tendency to just bite back to a manageable tip opening. It needs technique to be able to utilise the larger tip, it won't just work.

What do you consider a "larger" tip opening for sop? Greater than 0.056"? Greater than 0.070"? 0.090"?

I agree that people that dabble on sop are ill-advised to go larger than they can control. If the occasional player has the attitude that sop is just another saxophone, poor intonation will be obvious.

 

[Pete Effamy]

What do you consider a "larger" tip opening for sop? Greater than 0.056"? Greater than 0.070"? 0.090"?

I agree that people that dabble on sop are ill-advised to go larger than they can control. If the occasional player has the attitude that sop is just another saxophone, poor intonation will be obvious.

Don’t know really, not thought about it, but the premise of many comments is about properly wide.

 

[Dr G]

Don’t know really, not thought about it, but the premise of many comments is about properly wide.

"Properly wide".... Love it. That's like the old "Take in more mouthpiece" without knowing the baseline.

So a big tip opening is defined by the inability of the player to control it?

 

[Pete Effamy]

"Properly wide".... Love it. That's like the old "Take in more mouthpiece" without knowing the baseline.

So a big tip opening is defined by the inability of the player to control it?

No, but the title of the thread is Go Big Or Go Home.

 

[Dr G]

No, but the title of the thread is Go Big Or Go Home.

True.

You commented that a larger tip leads to intonation issues.

Yeah.. The biggest problem with this is a tendency to just bite back to a manageable tip opening. It needs technique to be able to utilise the larger tip, it won't just work.

...and in my opinion, it's likely to lead to worse intonation

In retrospect, I don't recall ever playing a sop mouthpiece so large that intonation was an issue. Maybe that's because I played bassoon in my earlier years, maybe it's because I'm an active listener, maybe it's because I've only played good mouthpieces. My choices tend to be driven by tone and response - good intonation is a fundamental requirement.

@Tonehole Do you find all your sop mouthpieces equally stable and predictable in a performance environment? Realize also that what you hear is not what the audience hears. Have you reliable feedback (either someone whose ears you trust or a recording) to evaluate whether your sound is getting out there?

 

[Pete Effamy]

You commented that a larger tip leads to intonation issues.

I used the word “the”, not “a”. Referencing what was being talked about: a really wide tip.

I’m sure most people here can find a mouthpiece chart and discern the smaller / medium / wider facings - we seem to be talking about the latter.

Any mouthpiece could be the best choice for someone - just recognising that a bigger engine isn’t necessarily the fastest way around the track for all.

 

[Dr G]

I used the word “the”, not “a”. Referencing what was being talked about: a really wide tip.

I’m sure most people here can find a mouthpiece chart and discern the smaller / medium / wider facings - we seem to be talking about the latter.

Any mouthpiece could be the best choice for someone - just recognising that a bigger engine isn’t necessarily the fastest way around the track for all.

Not disagreeing that a "really wide tip" is a struggle for some. There was a thread several years ago regarding a pass-around of sop mouthpieces with tip openings of 0.090+". That is "really wide" to me. I find it interesting that many mouthpiece makers top out around 0.070", yet that is only a 7* in Link facings. If you look at an alto tip opening chart, it is more common to have an upper limit of 9*/10. Tenor charts go to 10*/11. Bottom line: I don't consider 0.070" as a heavy lift just because that is where mouthpiece makers made an arbitrary cutoff.

 

[Nick Wyver]

My usual set up is a PPT 7 on a Yanag 991. If I really need to project a lot of noise I use a Yanag metal 9 on a curved BW.

 

[Tonehole]

@Tonehole Do you find all your sop mouthpieces equally stable and predictable in a performance environment? Realize also that what you hear is not what the audience hears. Have you reliable feedback (either someone whose ears you trust or a recording) to evaluate whether your sound is getting out there?

Yes I find I can play just about any make or reasonable tip size reliably. I may not like it but I can keep it intune pretty much regardless of reed or condition of the instrument, leaks whatever. I have a very good ear and bend notes and adjust on the fly to make it acceptable. It may not be correct on a tuner but if you keep everything in harmony it sounds like you are to the listener or untrained ear.

I gave up playing my Super 20's because they were so out of tune. I would adjust my playing and it would sound very cool in that full ahead type of playing. But wild when watching a tuner, it messed me up when I switched back to a more modern, better in tune instrument that did not require that effort. My BA alto was like that not as bad but constant adjusting. I played it for 20 years but once I got on a modern horn I had to ask myself what had I been doing, it was so much work. A mentor and top tech of mine an elite alto player gave up his beloved MKVI for a Yamaha when I was in my teens for the same reason. 🤫 Come to think of it he sold me that BA!

An older fellow I know who rocked on his cherished Super 20. He was a superhero when I was a teen. He bought a beautiful MK VI the right digits, super straight but after 40 years playing an S20 he just sounded terrible on it. He was so disappointed he was mainly self taught but a very proficient legit player and he could not adjust. It was him not the horn.

I play large tips so .075 or .080 on soprano though a C* for classical. A Super Jet sop 10 is a .090! A Selmer SuperSession J is only .069 my Bari Gold metal piece is .075.

As for feedback from outside the band's bubble I can only go by my years of experience. If I cannot hear the other soprano player next to me I have to push harder I was the lead. Not that he was that loud a player but he was not used to that style of playing or the enviroment.

I have been watching for a reasonably priced Lamberson sop piece for a couple of years now because of you Dr G! They ask as much for used as new! I bought a used 8 Bari piece but it was not for me and I flipped it.

 

[Tonehole]

I have a Metalite 11 kicking around somewhere - played it for a while and nowadays play a more sensible Vandoren B45...!

For the last 15 years or more I've used a Rousseau SJ6 on soprano sax...

Greg S.

I was following up on your piece and found they make an SJ8 = .085 and not an insane price.
I can live with this ...
Tone Profile: It delivers excellent edge, projection, and power, yet retains a dark, solid core and warm tonal center. Think of a tone inspired by the expansive sounds of legends like Wayne Shorter and Coltrane. 🤯

My Bari Gold metal is similar in design.... V shaped side walls.
Internal Geometry: The mouthpiece features a unique straight, medium-length baffle that scoops down as it hits the floor, paired with a secondary step baffle leading into a smaller chamber. This design provides the necessary velocity to cut through large jazz ensembles without becoming thin or harsh. Made by Jody Jazz.


The JDX Soprano is at home in Latin, Pop, Funk and Straight-Ahead Jazz.

May have a winner. 🤔

 

[David Roach]

What do you consider a "larger" tip opening for sop? Greater than 0.056"? Greater than 0.070"? 0.090"?

I agree that people that dabble on sop are ill-advised to go larger than they can control. If the occasional player has the attitude that sop is just another saxophone, poor intonation will be obvious.

IMO, soprano tips above a 6 (.060", or 1.52mm) are moving into the big territory. Over an 8 (.070, 1.78mm) very big.
My friend @aldevis plays a 12 I think, IMO in the humungous territory, but which sounds great and obviously not unplayable.

I would never presume to tell someone what they 'should' be using, but the plain fact stands that a 'correctly' made mouthpiece will play better, louder and softer - even in a smaller tip if that's what you like - than an averagely made piece. And let's face it, most soprano pieces are average-to-poorly made in comparison to alto and tenor pieces. It's very difficult for a mass-producer to guarantee a precise soprano facing. Even Vandoren, who IMO are probably the best in the off-the-shelf market can have quite a bit of variance in response and stability.

Look, everyone has their sweet spot. There were things I found very difficult on a closed tip until I met Ed Pillinger. Even so, now I no longer play in 'that band' I have settled into 6/6* tips.

(I had a discussion with one of the world's best tenor players a few years ago about soprano. He used to use a .070 tip Bari on sop, but told me he had to give up playing soprano because in order to get the sound he liked, he used to bite through his lip, which he was no longer prepared to do.)

 

[Pete Thomas]

I play a wide tip open tenor, and am happy playing wider than that (ie very wide such as 140 with a medium length facing. But on soprano I'm OK with a 6

You commented that a larger tip leads to intonation issues.

I think the issue is the wider you go for many people it's harder to control, but you have the ability for more versatile intonation. The problem is if you cannot control that tip and dial in to the increased versatility, then the wide top means the saxophone's own intonation tendencies take control. And with soprano that often isn't what you want.

I'll say again, using a chnage in gear (as opposed to practicing more) to solve a playing problem isn't always the best way to go.

 

[aldevis]

My friend @aldevis plays a 12 I think, IMO in the humungous territory, but which sounds great and obviously not unplayable.

Actually I moved down to a 9. When I just got the 9, after a couple of years on the 12, you came to a gig of mine and at the end of the first set told me that my lower register was "weak". I went back to the 12 for the second set.
Now I play the 9, being easier al lower dynamics, but the two mouthpieces are pretty much interchangeable. I even use the same reed strength.
But I remember that when I first got the 12, the trick was to "let it play" rather than forcing lips control

 

[turf3]

Well, my experience (and I DO "dabble" in soprano, do NOT put a lot of time in on it), has been that for alto tenor and baritone I prefer what used to be thought of as "open" facings but nowadays would be characterized as "slightly more open than medium": Meyer 7 on alto, Meyer 8 on tenor, Meyer 8 on baritone, or .081" on alto, .092 on tenor, .110 on baritone.

But for soprano I have had little or no trouble being heard in a full size big band with a Selmer C* S-80 (.047"). Key to me is NOT to over blow it. If you try to force baritone sized air through a soprano it'll choke up on you. I have not tried significantly more open soprano pieces, because the thing's so loud with what I've got. And as one of those "dabblers" I'm relying to a certain extent on a close facing and stiffer reed to help me control intonation. A voicing change that would result in a minor timbre change on baritone, will bend the soprano pitch a half step. At any rate, when I sat in on the lead trumpet chair playing soprano, I kept getting "the hand" even in loud passages, on the aforementioned Selmer C* and a Buescher soprano.

As a corollary, on BASS I also found that the smaller facings help a lot, not with intonation control, but with efficiency of air use. Remember, I'm playing a .110" baritone mouthpiece, but when I try that same facing on bass, it's like puff-puff-out of air. I end up using all my energy just to get through the next couple notes, rather than phrasing and articulating. With the bass piece I use (Selmer C* bass) there's still SO MUCH presence from the bass sax that there's no difficulty being heard; but I am able to conserve my air well enough to actually enjoy playing the thing instead of having to focus on air management. (This is exactly what Adrian Rollini had to say about mouthpiece selection, by the way.)

 

[Tonehole]

When I played in Big Bands I was using my 8 NY MeYer alto and my metal NY 4**** Tone Master opened to a 7* and I was more than loud enough. I got may hands on a D Ring 10 years ago and had it opened to a 7* and was happy with that I could blend or be heard no issuie. Band director would get upset when I did a solo as they tended not to be condusive to the genre.

Playing Bari on my 130 Berg boat table is a real joy it was given to me by a tech who had no use for it and no idea what it was. Very mossy and green. I asked Doc Tenney to close it for me and he said learn to play it or sell it to someone who can. I was a teen at the time and I learned how to play it and it is just amazing. Requires good air to support but any bari player who has tried it has asked if I would sell it.

Never tried Bass so out of my wheel house. but it looks like a real challenge.

 

[Tonehole]

Another reminder. I (we) don’t know much about your general background.
For me, as a former clarinetist, playing bigger saxes, and the baritone in particular, helped me tremendously to move away from the clarinet-type squeezed embouchure towards a large throat, broad air support and relaxed embouchure.
This goes with moderately open mouthpieces, and requires to push it far on the horn, as you will pitch lower.
Hearing Nick Brignola having a great tone both on baritone and soprano was a real ear opener.
In one of the bands where I played a lot of outdoor gigs, I switched back and forth between the bari and the soprano. This was really very formative.

Apologies I never did an intro on this site. I just showed up. I find it a very cordial place.

Keep in mind I am still learning and asking. I know there are many players with far more life experience, knowledge and skills than me on this forum. Many have supplied helpful guidance the past years to me, Pig Squealer, Dr G, Skellor are but a few.

Not being braggadocious just laying out some of my life experience. I studied classical clarinet and Bass clarinet until I was almost twenty. I also was fortunate to have studied under Phil Nimmons for awhile. Studied piano at the Royal Conservatory of music. Auditioned and attended the Academy of the Arts High school in Toronto. I was accepted for a Jazz performance scholarship to McGill University at age of sixteen on tenor. I studied and mentored in classical alto sax while there.. Bought a used Yani Elmo 880 my 1st sop while at university. My roommate is now a working musician in NY city, we booked as "Deuling Bari's" he on his Conn me on my SBA low Bb, Not much money but a lot of fun.

I moved off a Slant 7* and was playing on a Series III with a HR 7* Freddie Gregory Mk. IV at fourteen and still have both. Threw down a decent but naive version of Giant Steps at that age.

Yep I was one of those cocky kids going to jams and throwing down my "fast & furious" Cotrane licks.

This is where I came from, not who I am 20 years later, lots of joy and disappointment in between then and now. But this is why I show special interest in young players and try to help them as much as I can.

I made the decision to stop trying to play Jazz for pay about seven years ago because there isn't any. I decided to play whatever paid well. I now play just about every genre of music one can imagine. Klezmer to Indian, Classical to DJ sax and beyond. I fully embrace it and am fully immersed in it. This motivated me to change up my mouthpieces and equipment for more modern and diverse music than Jazz and Classical playing.

I currently play a 5JB on Bb Clarinet, Meyer Bro 5 on Series 9 Bass Clarinet, 7 Yani metal on Sopranino, 8 Bari Gold metal on Sop, A45 Limited on Alto, 7J metal Alto MeYer on C Melody, Beechler Bellite 8 Yoakum reworked for Tenor, 130 Boat table Berg or 8 Beechler Bellite on Baritone.

Bought a Selmer II sopranio six years ago and a Chinese C Melody two years ago. I am attempting to master both of these instruments.

Friday night I did a DJ sax gig at a club on alto. Saturday & Sunday I played a classical gig on C melody with a violinist, cocktails on tenor then a one hour "get this party started" gig and also the Indian gig on sop.

I get joy from playing and if it pays I play and I play a lot.

Cheers

 

[Grumps]

I made the decision to stop trying to play Jazz for pay about seven years ago because there isn't any.

Absolute brilliant way to put it.

 

[dexdex]

Thanks. This obsoletes my reminder above. You very likely don’t blow your soprano like a classic clarinet, which is a common way to choke the horn.
Like others, I do prefer moderately open mouthpieces on soprano, currently in the 1.6 mm area with a Vandoren V16 S6. Plenty of volume when needed.
By the way, I also played a 5JB on clarinet in the past, and moved to an easier BD7.