Intonation Some help please. Intonation madness!

[Wade Cornell]

This is how I make the alto size mutes using a wooden curtain ring and some velvet ribbon although there are lots of variations. I just found this to be the quickest and easiest. The thickness can be controlled by your choice of material how you do the wrapping. The conductor of my university symphonic band had the sax section use these mutes in order to blend better with the french horns and euphoniums whose parts were often doubled in the saxophones. It also made it so we didn't overpower the other woodwinds.

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What a great idea, and simple! I'm guessing that wrapping with something that's not quite so sound absorbent could do the trick, but soft enough to not harm the finish in the bell. Certainly not expensive and no harm in trying. Thanks jbesax. Much appreciated.

 

[Wade Cornell]

The messages I quoted were in a couple of emails from Uwe to me back in April. So I guess you bought it around that time. I'm sure that Uwe would give you pointers on the mouthpiece(s) he used and found best. I was tempted by the horn back then but I am trying to be good and I have had tuning issues with J Keilwerth saxes previously so I didn't buy this one.

Dawkes have got a very close relation of your G Keilwerth alto for sale at the moment G. Keilwerth - The Tone King - Alto Sax | eBay Maybe they could give you some ideas on mouthpieces and even necks.

Good luck

I had a suspicion that we were both talking about Uwe. If Uwe had a mouthpiece that worked I'm sure he would have told me. As it was he sent me sound files and I could tell that there was an intonation problem, so I don't think he has the answer.

Is Dawkes a member here? I couldn't find him under that name in the search.

This horn from Uwe is nothing like the one offered on Ebay. Did Uwe send you pictures? It's not exactly like the other one either (that you put the link for), but more similar with the body being different, but the key-work the same.. I'd be afraid to try to order a replacement neck that was even a regular G Keilwerth. It may be that everything is configured differently. The neck size is smaller diameter than my Martin or Dolnet altos. Definitely not big bore geometry...if anything smaller than normal. I could put a micrometer on the neck and see what it reads...not that that will help. I might see what's available in cheap larger and smaller chamber mouthpieces to just see if that makes a difference. Could also start putting blue tack into the neck and see if any of that makes a difference. Would be nice though to have a real fix.

Many thanks Rhys for your assistance. Continuing to be open to ideas...

Wade

 

[Wade Cornell]

Have just looked once again at the two G Keilwerth links (Ebay and prototype) and this horn is definitely very different. Some of the keywork design features are similar, but it's definitely not the same. The octave key configuration is completely different. I'd be very concerned about trying to get a different neck. A real puzzle!

 

[rhysonsax]

I had a suspicion that we were both talking about Uwe. If Uwe had a mouthpiece that worked I'm sure he would have told me. As it was he sent me sound files and I could tell that there was an intonation problem, so I don't think he has the answer.

Is Dawkes a member here? I couldn't find him under that name in the search.

This horn from Uwe is nothing like the one offered on Ebay. Did Uwe send you pictures? It's not exactly like the other one either (that you put the link for), but more similar with the body being different, but the key-work the same.. I'd be afraid to try to order a replacement neck that was even a regular G Keilwerth. It may be that everything is configured differently. The neck size is smaller diameter than my Martin or Dolnet altos. Definitely not big bore geometry...if anything smaller than normal. I could put a micrometer on the neck and see what it reads...not that that will help. I might see what's available in cheap larger and smaller chamber mouthpieces to just see if that makes a difference. Could also start putting blue tack into the neck and see if any of that makes a difference. Would be nice though to have a real fix.

Many thanks Rhys for your assistance. Continuing to be open to ideas...

Wade

Uwe shared pictures of that G Keilwerth alto via Dropbox and it does look fine with the colour of the tube, the contrasting keywork etc.

Dawkes is a large wind instrument shop in Maidenhead just West of London and Windcraft (who is selling that other G Keilwerth on eBay) is the associated company dealing with parts and repair tools etc. I don't think anyone from Dawkes is a member here but lots of forum members will have experience of the shop.

Uwe's words to me about mouthpieces and tuning were " ..... it just responds amazingly throughout the whole range with a very dark tenor like sound. It is a large bore horn and I play it with a large chamber mouthpiece, great intonation." I would drop him an email just to see what mouthpieces he tried and which one he settled on.

Rhys

 

[Wade Cornell]

Uwe shared pictures of that G Keilwerth alto via Dropbox and it does look fine with the colour of the tube, the contrasting keywork etc.

Dawkes is a large wind instrument shop in Maidenhead just West of London and Windcraft (who is selling that other G Keilwerth on eBay) is the associated company dealing with parts and repair tools etc. I don't think anyone from Dawkes is a member here but lots of forum members will have experience of the shop.

Uwe's words to me about mouthpieces and tuning were " ..... it just responds amazingly throughout the whole range with a very dark tenor like sound. It is a large bore horn and I play it with a large chamber mouthpiece, great intonation." I would drop him an email just to see what mouthpieces he tried and which one he settled on.

Rhys

Thanks once again Rhys for the information. Could be interesting to talk to the folks at Dawkes. Thanks for setting me straight about that being a shop (unknown to me). I guess I can Google them for a contact.

The situation with Uwe is more delicate. As said previously I could hear that there was an intonation problem. He sent me a video of his playing the horn. I'd imagine that he was using whatever mouthpiece he'd mentioned to you. Would he use a mouthpiece that didn't show off the horn as sounding good as possible when wanting to sell it? So, there's no point in asking him "what was the mouthpiece" as it didn't solve the problem. It's now my problem to solve as. If it can be solved then I've got a very fine horn. If it can't be solved I have an expensive ornament or can continue to use it for recording by de-tuning the templates by 30 cents and pulling the neck out 6 mm which brings the horn's intonation back together. I can then record and put the whole thing back up 30 cents and pretend everything is OK.

I'm still not sure how it's a "large bore horn" when my Martin Music Man neck is too large for the tenon and so is my Dolnet. Maybe the bore becomes larger in proportion after the tenon? By comparison My R&C tenor is definitely a large bore and no other tenor neck (that I own) is nearly the same size.

It's got to be remembered that this is a prototype that didn't make it into production. It has a lot of very good features and is a good looking horn. It's possible that after making this they just didn't want to have to do any further redesigns and let the project go. If I can find a big enough chamber mouthpiece that still plays in concert pitch that would be a good fix. If not then I guess it's time to muck around with the neck. How much time and $$ do I want to throw at it...unknown, but it seems possible that Gerhard and Uwe may not have wanted to put in the time or $$.

The quest for an answer continues...

 

[rhysonsax]

I think Uwe moves saxophones and mouthpieces along quite regularly - I have bought at least one sax and several mouthpieces from him.

It's a shame that you and the instrument are Down Under from here - I would love to see and hear it in person and have multiple mouthpieces that might suit it.

One slightly unusual mouthpiece that might help is a Woodwind Co. Meliphone Special which has an inner chamber that is wider than the bore or the normal chamber. It has quite a modern sound and also seems to tune really well on lots of different saxophones. The Dick Stabile mouthpieces were a particular size of the Meliphone Special and both seem to show up on eBay quite regularly. More information here.

I think that as it is a prototype, chasing improvements by neck modifications would be something of a lottery, but someone like Karsten Gloger might be able to advise you about principles and maybe some ideas.

Good luck

Rhys

 

[Wade Cornell]

Once again very grateful Rhys for your help. I'll look for one of those Woodwind Co. Meliphone Specials. I got a kick out of looking through the catalogue link. One of the models featured was the "Merle Johnston". He was my first sax teacher back in 1958! He also taught Larry Teal, Joe Allard, Jimmy Doresy and others. My father and Merle were mates who played together in New York back in the 1920s. My dad asked Merle to teach me. Normally Merle only took advanced adult students, but said yes. I studied with him for around two years and then went to a boarding school in Carlsbad Ca. Nearby lived another old mate of my father's Arnold Brilhart who I got to meet and hang out with (briefly). He gave me one of his mouthpieces...wish I still had it.

The quest continues...

 

[Wade Cornell]

Checked out Ebay for a Woodwind Co Meliphone Special and found one there. For some reason that reminded me that I'd got a Syos mouthpiece some time ago that had a huge chamber. I was trying to tame my too bright Music Man Alto. It didn't do the trick, so I put it aside and then considered Uwe's alto. The Syos mouthpiece wasn't in the mouthpiece drawer, so I'd forgotten about it. Well I found it in the Martin case and gave it a blow. Works! Not as bright as I'd like, but has certainly put me back on track. I just have to make one of jbtsax's bell doughnuts and see if I can drop the low Bb by 30 cents. I think the long term solution will be to get Syos to make me a similar large chamber piece that's just a tad brighter. For now it's pretty close to what I've been looking for (sound wise) without the bottom of the horn sounding too stuffy.

Once again thanks to all for your valuable inputs as it has helped enormously.

 

[ellinas]

Good news.

Now experiment with a thinner/brighter Reed.... And fine tune your result. I'm happy you found a solution...

 

[Colin the Bear]

A lot of vintage mouthpieces are almost straight through. A Selmer vocaltone or airflow, or a pickle barrel Lelandais or pickle barrel Ben Davis. I seem to remember the Selmer metal jazz has a large chamber. You may have to move away from your prefered set up to get the best out if the horn and rethink your preferences and prejudices. Which may be the hardest part. We do get set in our ways.