Saxophones Serial Numbers different info on Pan American

[Punchysax]

Evening , a question ,my recent Pan American Tenor displays a serial number of 102 xxx one site says 1950 but another says 1928 , I know it’s a later model , any members have a reliably accurate Pan American serial chart.
Cheers

 

[turf3]

Pan American SNs don't follow the general Conn sequence as far as I know.

I believe (someone needs to check me here) that when they renamed them "Conn Director" they started following the main line Conn SNs.

What I remember from looking at your photos is that you have a VERY LATE Pan American, clearly from its visible design features made just before the switch to 16M Conn Director.

 

[Punchysax]

Thank you

 

[PigSquealer]

The build features of your tenor are post 1950. That Horn-U- list is way off. I just looked. Sorry about referring you there.

You can read most of this thread as a guest. The finished list has not been completed.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/pan-american-serial-number-dating-study.213772/?nested_view=1

If anything your horn will be newer than early 50’s, but I don’t think newer than 1965. @JayeNM ??

 

[thomsax]

A 102 XXX "Conn" is made around 1923 1924. Back then Pan American was an indpendent company. PanAmerican was a second line sax/brand. Use to be A #P# prefix before the serial number on old Pan Americans.

A #102 XXX sax can be made around 1978-1979! S The bell and bell brace is differnt compared to most other Conns. I've seen this on some Abilene Conns as well.

 

[PigSquealer]

.

A 102 XXX "Conn" is made around 1923 1924. Back then Pan American was an indpendent company. PanAmerican was a second line sax/brand. Use to be A #P# prefix before the serial number on old Pan Americans.

A #102 XXX sax can be made around 1978-1979! S The bell and bell brace is differnt compared to most other Conns. I've seen this on some Abilene Conns as well.

78-79 would be interesting year for wire guards and halo octave key on crook. The overall finish condition looks a newer than 1950’s, so yeah, 78-79 makes sense.

 

[JayeNM]

Pan American SNs don't follow the general Conn sequence as far as I know.

I believe (someone needs to check me here) that when they renamed them "Conn Director" they started following the main line Conn SNs.

What I remember from looking at your photos is that you have a VERY LATE Pan American, clearly from its visible design features made just before the switch to 16M Conn Director.

Yes, it was member "Badenia" from SOTW that compiled the PA serial numbers, I believe they are available on Conn Loyalist website, the one run by Dr. Derksen.

@PigSquealer - No PanAm-engraved horn will be newer than around '57, because that is when I personally noticed the PA's got the Conn logo to replace it. It was initially a "no-shooting stars" logo, just a very simple small block font that read Conn, Ltd or something like that.

Some folks say that happened in '55, thus the youngest PA's are from '55 (IOW the first Directors are from '55).
Oldest Director I have ever seen had a '57 serial, but I'll buy the '55 date since it came from reliable sources....

 

[turf3]

A 102 XXX "Conn" is made around 1923 1924. Back then Pan American was an indpendent company. PanAmerican was a second line sax/brand. Use to be A #P# prefix before the serial number on old Pan Americans.

A #102 XXX sax can be made around 1978-1979! S The bell and bell brace is differnt compared to most other Conns. I've seen this on some Abilene Conns as well.

The horn he's talking about is clearly identifiable by visual inspection as a late 40s-mid 50s product.

It is well known that Pan Am had their own SN sequence.

 

[JayeNM]

A 102 XXX "Conn" is made around 1923 1924. Back then Pan American was an indpendent company. PanAmerican was a second line sax/brand. Use to be A #P# prefix before the serial number on old Pan Americans.

A #102 XXX sax can be made around 1978-1979! S The bell and bell brace is differnt compared to most other Conns. I've seen this on some Abilene Conns as well.

Abilene Conns ? You mean the trumpets ? The Abilene plant didn't make saxes, I am fairly certain.


Here's the Conn Loyalist list - again this was an exhaustive, many-year accumulation of serials and cross-referencing by Badenia that created this. He had it vetted by Dr, Derksen and I believe Andy Stock (Stocker from SOTW) was also involved as well as myself just on a more informal level....so it's accurate:

Pagina niet gevonden - mijnweb.site

Deze pagina bestaat niet of is niet meer beschikbaar. Oude XS4ALL-homepages zijn soms nog terug te vinden via webarchieven.

cderksen.home.xs4all.nl

 

[turf3]

Abilene Conns ? You mean the trumpets ? The Abilene plant didn't make saxes, I am fairly certain.


Here's the Conn Loyalist list - again this was an exhaustive, many-year accumulation of serials and cross-referencing by Badenia that created this. He had it vetted by Dr, Derksen and I believe Andy Stock (Stocker from SOTW) was also involved as well as myself just on a more informal level....so it's accurate:

Pagina niet gevonden - mijnweb.site

Deze pagina bestaat niet of is niet meer beschikbaar. Oude XS4ALL-homepages zijn soms nog terug te vinden via webarchieven.

cderksen.home.xs4all.nl

Which puts the horn in question at 1950-1951, which is EXACTLY what it looks like. I don't even understand why we're running around this mulberry bush with dates like 1923 (NOPE) or 1978 (NOPE) being floated as possibilities.

 

[JayeNM]

Not everyone is familiar with the PA sequence, I guess...relatively speaking, it is 'recent' information (several years have gone by since it was unveiled, but still.....)

The problem with the internet is...superceded information doesn't get taken down unless the website owner is diligent ...so there is tons of old, outdated info on serials and sax model info websites still...

 

[thomsax]

Abilene Conns ? You mean the trumpets ? The Abilene plant didn't make saxes, I am fairly certain.

That explain why they didn't answered my letters I send to them back in the 70's!!!!

 

[JayeNM]

That explain why they didn't answered my letters I send to them back in the 70's!!!!

Trust me I get it...I dabbled in some trumpet forums on and off and they always talked about the Abilene era...and I had no clue WTH that meant until someone clarified it.....

 

[Ghr9204]

so there is tons of old, outdated info on serials and sax model info websites still...

As people retire and websites go off-line, serial numbers are getting harder to find. Granted, not all sites had accurate information, but one could at least have a decent stab at dating their sax by sifting through the info.

As the archive sites such as Wayback Machine, the information falls into further obscurity by lessened hits (popularity), it becomes harder to find.

 

[JayeNM]

As people retire and websites go off-line, serial numbers are getting harder to find. Granted, not all sites had accurate information, but one could at least have a decent stab at dating their sax by sifting through the info.

As the archive sites such as Wayback Machine, the information falls into further obscurity by lessened hits (popularity), it becomes harder to find.

It is true, seems antithetical, though, doesn't it ?

 

[Punchysax]

Evening,
Here is the bell engraving.
Regards

 

[Pete Thomas]

As the archive sites such as Wayback Machine, the information falls into further obscurity by lessened hits (popularity), it becomes harder to find.

I don't quite understand that. Wayback machine has (IMO illegally) scraped website content. If anything is harder to find, it's because the provider of such content chose to no longer make it available. However I wonder how lessened hits actually make it harder to find.

 

[PigSquealer]

Yes, it was member "Badenia" from SOTW that compiled the PA serial numbers, I believe they are available on Conn Loyalist website, the one run by Dr. Derksen.

@PigSquealer - No PanAm-engraved horn will be newer than around '57, because that is when I personally noticed the PA's got the Conn logo to replace it. It was initially a "no-shooting stars" logo, just a very simple small block font that read Conn, Ltd or something like that.

Some folks say that happened in '55, thus the youngest PA's are from '55 (IOW the first Directors are from '55).
Oldest Director I have ever seen had a '57 serial, but I'll buy the '55 date since it came from reliable sources....

Not everyone is familiar with the PA sequence, I guess...relatively speaking, it is 'recent' information (several years have gone by since it was unveiled, but still.....)

The problem with the internet is...superceded information doesn't get taken down unless the website owner is diligent ...so there is tons of old, outdated info on serials and sax model info websites still...

Kurt’s (Badenia) PA thread I posted on post #4. You guys all put a ton of effort into sorting a dating timeline. Thanks for that.
Oddly I looked at Conn Loyalist and ended up on Horn U and immediately knew that list is inaccurate. Mike or Kenton should revise or remove it.
The list link you posted didn’t show at first. Dunno why ?

My thoughts of the PA discussed here being newer than 50’s. Well we’ve seen some oddballs. That horn really looks great for being 75 years old.

The PA change to Director name around 1955 is what I remember.
1955 catalog. Director sax on page 18.

1955 Conn Band and Orchestra Instruments | Saxophone.org

Saxophone.org - created by saxophone players for saxophone players. Features an active saxophone forum, buy sell trade your sax, saxophone museum, sax teachers and more.

www.saxophone.org

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a PA catalog. Has anyone?

 

[Grumps]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a PA catalog. Has anyone?

How about a brochure?